Baptists.

The Christian's role in the home, church and society. Parenting. Marriage and Divorce. Support and Encouragement. Please read the guidelines before posting.

Baptists.

Postby mara.shawn » Mon Sep 18, 2017 10:03 am

Hello,

I've been dating a man for two years. His family is heavily indoctrinated with CoC. His Dad is even a preacher. My family is predominately Baptist's. I do not call myself one because I just believe in the Bible and I happen to feel more comfortable at a Baptist like church. I want to be clear, I do not agree with many things about the CoC. But, I regard them as fellow Christians because if someone tells me that Jesus died for their sins, I'm not going to tell them he didn't. I don't have that right. Anyway, ever since his family really understood that I wasn't looking to join their belief system or implement it into any future children my soon to be fiancee have, it's been very difficult. I feel so alienated and like such an outcast. And my love is just defeated and confused. And he wants his family to be happy, but he doesn't believe how they do either.

I just would like some advice on how to handle this situation. It's very stressful. And how do I get them to stop calling me a Baptist? I follow Jesus. It's kind of offensive after a while.

Warmest regards.
Mara
mara.shawn
 
Posts: 1
Joined: Mon Sep 18, 2017 9:52 am

Re: Baptists.

Postby Jack9874 » Mon Sep 18, 2017 2:11 pm

Mara,

In my opinion, the key to your happiness in this situation depends greatly upon your soon to be fiancé. You stated that he doesn't believe the way his family believes. That's a good start. But you need to be certain, that even though he wants his family to be happy, that it's more important to him, that you are happy.

He needs to be willing to stand up to his family members in support of your beliefs. I am not saying that he should argue with them about doctrine. I'm just saying that when his family members start giving you a hard time about not being a member of the CoC, he needs to shut it down immediately. Religion should be off the table as a subject of family conversation when you are visiting with them. If that doesn't work, and it continues to be stressful for you to deal with his family regarding this situation, then he should be willing to limit the interaction that the two of you have with his family. With your fiancé/husband's support, you should feel like it is his family who are the outcasts, not you.

And here is something that you must understand. It sounds like members of his family are hardline CoC people. With his dad being a preacher, well that makes it even worse. You need to accept that these people have been indoctrinated to believe that unless you have followed the exact procedure that they prescribe and become an "official" member of "the Church of Christ", then you are definitely going to hell. If you can deal with this, and as long as your husband does not agree with this doctrine, then you should be fine.

If you have the courage and the fortitude, and of course some good Bible knowledge, you may, at some point, want to take on the challenge of getting some of his family members to rethink what they have been taught all their lives within the Church of Christ. Some of us do change our beliefs, when presented with a clear and simple interpretation of the Scriptures.

By the way, to get them to stop calling you a Baptist, try this. Start calling the Church of Christ, a denomination. When they protest, tell them you will stop using that description when they stop describing you as a Baptist.

Jack
Jack9874
 
Posts: 53
Joined: Sun Aug 02, 2015 12:50 am

Re: Baptists.

Postby teresa » Mon Sep 18, 2017 10:51 pm

Hi Mara,

My heart goes out to you. I agree with Jack. There is nothing you can do that will change their minds. The only question is whether your fiance is willing to stand up to his family and/or limit his interaction with them. Some hardline parents will shun adult children who stop going to the CoC.

The following is an article that your husband might enjoy reading. It was published in a CoC magazine that challenged the old CoC way of thinking. http://www.theexaminer.org/volume3/number3/mistake.htm
User avatar
teresa
Site Admin
 
Posts: 501
Joined: Sun Jan 12, 2014 10:18 pm

Re: Baptists.

Postby Math Dork » Tue Sep 19, 2017 11:13 am

Hello Mara:

I want to amend my thoughts to the good ones already expressed by previous Jack and Teresa. I LOVED Jack's suggestion on nomenclature.

I regret your situation. Four immediate thoughts.
1) If you do not come first as his fiancee, you will not come first as his wife.
2) Winning religious debates will not fix this, because this is about attitude.
3) I consider it outrageous that he is bringing you to family events, and accepting such treatment of you.
4) A lot of this will hinge on whether your maybe future-fiancee is a man, or a boy who looks like a man.

It has been two years. He needs to propose.
1) Get him to look at rings and give him a clear knowledge that you are expecting a proposal.
2) If he does not, stop taking this abuse for nothing, and dump him.
I have no respect for guys who test how long their girlfriends will wait, and you should not either. A man who really loves a woman wants to propose as quickly as he thinks she will accept. On the assumption that he is willing to propose, I proceed with the next steps.

My wife has a sister who is married to a guy who loves everyone in his previous family more than he does his wife. She lives on the west coast far away from everyone who really loves her. His family does not respect her, and he does not care. He gives her the `shaft' in terms of attention and money anytime his biological family calls for it. It is a bad situation.

To be honest, I cannot even understand how this is tolerable to your maybe future-fiancee. As a married man, I cannot imagine tolerating biological family members being malicious to my wife. It would take laws and the teachings of Jesus to restrain me. I would have to avoid physical presence to avoid putting my fist or palm through that person's face.

My father has at times failed to treat both my wife and my older brother's wife with respect. We made him pay for that mistake on one evening he decided to be particularly obnoxious during a family gathering. We both packed up and left. He found himself missing his sons when we would not speak to him or visit. We found ways to see our mother and talk to her without him. After giving him some time to fully reflect on the situation, we restored the relationships separately. Our wives come first, and he knows it.

As for religion, to me "hardline Church of Christ" is not about their distinctive precepts: it is an attitude. Hardline Church of Christ people have all of these attributes, but would never have the honesty to admit it. They:
A) believe anyone they disagree with `Believes ___ to justify sinful living according to their own sinful desires,'
B) holds personal disdain and even malice for such people,
C) encourage it among each other,
D) believe that when it comes to treatment of non-agreeing persons, they are largely or entirely exempt from Scripture's directives of how we treat people.

Do not bother with religious debates with hardliners when it comes to pursuing family peace. They will just hate you even more. They do not actually care about the Bible except when it makes them believe they are right. That is their favorite use of the Bible: to make them feel right. To `bother' them about more accurate understandings of their favorite passages, or about the rest of the Book, only makes them think of what nasty thing they can say or do to you next.

There is a good chance his family will never accept you as a decent person. There is a good chance they will nurse a grudge against you for perceived lack of `sufficient' agreement with them. They also frequently hold similar malice towards family members and friends of the `wayward' person -- including children.

A couple's engagement is a period of time when a couple have committed to being married. It is the time when the couple should live their lives under the assumption they will be married for as long as both are alive.

Accordingly, your maybe future-fiancee will need to start showing more loyalty to you than his family. You need to be evaluating his performance in that area.
A) Give him some reasonable `cushion' during this transition for honest mistakes -- but accept only sincere apologies, not excuses.
B) Do not accept a habit of defending biological family members when they insult you or treat you out of malice.
C) Do not accept `We are not married yet' or any other stalling tactics.
If you find yourself routinely going `under the bus' for his Daddy and Mommy, then you need to leave him with Daddy and Mommy, and go find yourself a man.

If Daddy and Mommy and whoever else cannot treat you with civility, then
1) you and your maybe future-fiancee need to simply not be around them together,
2) he needs to make clear you two are a `package deal' by not visiting without you,
3) when they blame you for `taking away their son' he needs to set them straight,
4) this needs to last until they decide that they miss him more than they hate you.
Remember, if you do not come first as his fiancee, you will not come first as his wife.

Now, if your maybe future-fiancee actually `steps up to the plate' for you, then give this a chance. It would be proof of a real love that would offer a good marriage.

However, remember: the issue is not `winning debates.' It is about whether or not your maybe future-fiancee is ready to
A) stop being a Daddy and Mommy's boy, to
B) be your man, your husband.

Having spent 3 hours on the road and having worked afternoon and evening, I have this to add. Tell him that the next time someone in his family calls you "Baptist" in his presence, and he does not correct them, you will take two weeks off where he will have no contact with you. Tell him that after that, if they call you "Baptist" in his presence and he does not correct them, he will be calling himself "single."
Math Dork
 
Posts: 24
Joined: Fri May 20, 2016 11:28 pm

Re: Baptists.

Postby Jack9874 » Wed Sep 20, 2017 3:05 am

Hi Mara,

It would appear that, so far, you have a consensus of advice on how to handle your situation. We all think that you should be getting total support from your future husband. If you do not, then this situation will probably not go well for you. But after reading Math Dork's post, I thought that I should clarify something that I said to you in my earlier post.

First I suggested that your boyfriend's family might be "hardline" CoC people.
Then in the next paragraph I wrote this.

"If you have the courage and the fortitude, and of course some good Bible knowledge, you may, at some point, want to take on the challenge of getting some of his family members to rethink what they have been taught all their lives within the Church of Christ. Some of us do change our beliefs, when presented with a clear and simple interpretation of the Scriptures."

First of all, I only expected that you might do this after you had married into that family, and probably several years later, after you get to know some of the family members better. At some point you might detect some willingness by some family member to listen to another point of view. Still, I would not suggest that you tackle a religious debate with them, unless you have some really thorough Bible knowledge, and also, you are certain that it will not cause more problems with his family.

Let me also explain my use of the term "hardline CoC". Now if we use Math Dork's definition of "hardline CoC", then I would agree with him, that you should not waste your time debating religious doctrine with them. However, my definition of "hardline CoC" is not the same as Math Dork's. For me, a hardline CoC person is someone who believes that the only pathway to heaven is following the strict teaching of the Church of Christ. Variance on any of their doctrinal points will take you to hell. And non CoC Christians are not really Christians. This pretty much sums up their hardline approach to salvation.

The disdain for and ill treatment of non CoC people that Math Dork describes, does most certainly exist among some of the CoC hardliners. But not all of them. And probably not most of them. As Math Dork stated, this type of behavior is about attitude, not doctrinal beliefs. And I would say that this nasty attitude that Math Dork describes, can be attributed to a specific personality trait, and not a specific religious belief. The type of people that Math Dork describes can be found in many places outside the CoC, as well as in other religious groups. For these people, it is about ego. It is about thinking that you are better than everybody else. It is about destroying your competition. I don't believe that kind of attitude is exclusive to hardline CoC people.

I would classify my late parents as hardline CoC people. They believed all of the strict CoC doctrine. And they believed that only CoC people would make it to heaven. And yet, they were kind and loving to everyone. Even their "wayward" son. They raised me in the CoC. But during my early 20's, I stopped going to church, grew my hair long, played in wild rock and roll bands, and I let my sinful nature take control of me. This period of my life lasted for quite a few years. But I was never shunned or treated badly by my parents or any other CoC person in my family. They just prayed a lot for me. And my Dad would occasionally say, "You know, you need to start going back to church." And I would say, "Yeah, I know".

My first wife, and my current wife, were not members of the CoC when I married them. And neither one of them ever became members of the CoC. But my parents always treated them both with love and respect. My current wife, and also my ex-wife, thought they were the greatest in-laws a woman could ever have. But there was never any question in my mind about the fact that my parents believed that all non CoC people would be going to hell. And I know that made them very sad, because many of their friends and family were not CoC people. My parents were not the kind of people that Math Dork describes.

Mara, those of us who have responded to your post, are just speculating about what type of people you are dealing with here, based on the limited information you have provided to us. But only you can know the kind of people they really are, and if you might be able to find any compassion among them. But let me just say, that if all of them are the kind of people that Math Dork has described, then you need to be absolutely certain that this boyfriend of yours is worth all the stuff that you will be dealing with as his mate. So again, as we have all advised you, make sure that your future husband is willing to support you and stand up against his family when they try to hassle you about your beliefs. If he is not willing to do this, then you should think long and hard about the merits of continuing this relationship.

Jack
Jack9874
 
Posts: 53
Joined: Sun Aug 02, 2015 12:50 am

Re: Baptists.

Postby Math Dork » Wed Sep 20, 2017 10:28 pm

Jack9874 wrote:...
Mara, those of us who have responded to your post, are just speculating about what type of people you are dealing with here, based on the limited information you have provided to us.
If they are insisting upon calling her "Baptist" even though
A) she is not, and
B) does not want to be labeled that,
then it is pretty clear to me what type of people that they are.

These are not nice people. They falsely label her "Baptist" because they know it makes her unhappy, and they enjoy making her unhappy.

These are the types of people who pretend to value and appreciate you until your `grace period' to `think correctly' runs out. Then, the smiles lack `light' in the eyes, their facial expressions and tones of voice become `edgy,' and the `fangs' start to show.

It is probably going to get worse.
The type of people that Math Dork describes can be found in many places outside the CoC, as well as in other religious groups.
Certainly they do -- as individual abscesses
A) rarely encouraged, and
B) usually ignored or disdained
even within the zealot's own group.

Only the Churches of Christ have ever had a culture encouraging the phenomenon I described. To be fair, it is going away, finally.

But only you can know the kind of people they really are, and if you might be able to find any compassion among them. But let me just say, that if all of them are the kind of people that Math Dork has described, then you need to be absolutely certain that this boyfriend of yours is worth all the stuff that you will be dealing with as his mate. So again, as we have all advised you, make sure that your future husband is willing to support you and stand up against his family when they try to hassle you about your beliefs. If he is not willing to do this, then you should think long and hard about the merits of continuing this relationship.

Jack
Absolutely!

To be honest, I am concerned about the possibility he is hoping to join in after he has her married.

His lack of intervention speaks volumes to me. He either
A) does not care enough about her to stand up for her, or
B) he secretly believes she deserves it, or
C) he secretly approves of it.
Of course, these are not mutually exclusive.

I do not think he deserves another day of this woman's affections, and nor do I think it would be in her best interests to stay together. That said, love is not about worthiness or our best interests. If he makes her happy, then I encourage her to give him a chance to exceed expectations.
Math Dork
 
Posts: 24
Joined: Fri May 20, 2016 11:28 pm

Re: Baptists.

Postby Jack9874 » Thu Sep 21, 2017 1:41 am

Math Dork wrote:
These are not nice people. They falsely label her "Baptist" because they know it makes her unhappy, and they enjoy making her unhappy.

Good point.

Only the Churches of Christ have ever had a culture encouraging the phenomenon I described.

Are you sure? It seems to me that there are quite a few liberal groups, these days, that could come awfully close.
Jack9874
 
Posts: 53
Joined: Sun Aug 02, 2015 12:50 am

Re: Baptists.

Postby Math Dork » Thu Sep 21, 2017 7:50 am

Math Dork wrote:Only the Churches of Christ have ever had a culture encouraging the phenomenon I described.

Jack9874 wrote:Are you sure? It seems to me that there are quite a few liberal groups, these days, that could come awfully close.
I was talking exclusively in the context of churches.

Yes, you are right about leftist "social justice" thug groups, which are even worse than the Churches of Christ were. An important difference is that the Churches of Christ are getting better, while the leftists become more vile by the month.
Math Dork
 
Posts: 24
Joined: Fri May 20, 2016 11:28 pm

Re: Baptists.

Postby Stew » Sat Sep 23, 2017 9:48 am

I suggest a belief check. Ask him plainly if we had children then what must they do to be saved?

Perhaps he is not defending you because he wants you to obey the message of salvation.
Stew
 
Posts: 9
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2016 8:16 pm

Re: Baptists.

Postby agricola2 » Sun Nov 05, 2017 3:47 pm

Mara - if you are still around - you should know that, to the coc, they are the only actual Christians. Nobody else is a Christian. All Christians are coc members.

It doesn't matter what other people think, to the coc, everybody who isn't a member of a coc (and even some of THEM) are falsely claiming to be Christians. The fact that they use 'denominational labels' simply PROVES, to a coc member, that they aren't REAL Christians. Real Christians go to a coc. It is faintly possible that they might go to a place called 'Christian church', or maybe, just MAYBE a Church of God (but not really).

If your boyfriend won't defend you now, he won't defend you later. This is a major issue to bring up with him.
agricola2
 
Posts: 18
Joined: Sat Aug 01, 2015 3:26 pm


Return to Life as a Christian.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron