Ask about Judaism

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agricola
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Re: Ask about Judaism

Post by agricola »

teresa wrote:In the photo you posted, where is the Gemara?

I think I may have seen a copy of the Mishna once a very long-time ago at someone's house (I was tagging along with a friend). I remember opening a page at random and it had instructions about something (can't remember what), but no commentaries.
See that central column? A mishnah is written in Hebrew (will look like BOLD PRINT) in that central area, followed by the Gemara, also in the central column, but in a smaller, lighter font - I'll see if I can dig up a closeup -
A Gemara on any given Mishnah may go on for pages and pages, so you don't see a Mishnaic statement on each page.

Image
OKAY - this one is color coded! Blue is a mishnah. Yellow is Gemara. Green is Rashi's commentary. Pink and Salmon are other commentaries - I suspect one is Nachmanides but I'm not sure. The light green ones along the margin are refs to commentaries not included in the printed edition here. I think the blue-purple in the upper left corner is probably the Tosafot (Rashi's sons in law, collectively) Basically, Rashi explains the Mishna and Gemara - gives the plain understanding of difficult passages, nothing too complicated but basic. Kids start Rashi at age five. His sons in law wrote commentaries on Rashi's commentaries.
I can't read most of it, but it is a page from the Rosh Hashana tractate.

Rashi is kind of unique - he not only wrote the first really comprehensive commentary on the ENTIRE Talmud, he also completed a separate commentary on the entire Jewish Bible, TOO - all while running a successful winery and raising a large family of girls, who married some pretty impressive scholars.
When you read Rashi's commentaries you get a feel for him, you know? Rashi was NICE.
History is the fiction we invent to persuade ourselves that events are knowable and that life has order and direction. That's why events are always reinterpreted when values change. We need new versions of history to allow for our current prejudices.
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agricola
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Re: Ask about Judaism

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You can get a somewhat pedestrian Talmud in translation for a kindle, very cheap. Doesn't include the commentaries though.

h**ps://smile.amazon.com/BABYLONIAN-TALMUD-ALL-VOLUMES-ILLUSTRATED-ebook/dp/B01GY0FCGQ/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1491167237&sr=8-1&keywords=kindle+talmud


I see (however) that I've implied that a mishnah is an actual QUOTE from Torah - that's not necessarily true (sometimes it is). A mishnah is a basic legal statement, which is BASED (pretty much directly) on a Torah law. So it MIGHT be a quote, or it might not look like anything you've seen before - but it is a 'basic principle' kind of statement, which leads to the Gemara: a discussion on the exact meaning and special cases.

Here's an example, also from Rosh Hashana (note also that this mishnah - the first one in the tractate - has really NOTHING to do with Rosh Hashana.

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and a piece of the associated Gemara:

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History is the fiction we invent to persuade ourselves that events are knowable and that life has order and direction. That's why events are always reinterpreted when values change. We need new versions of history to allow for our current prejudices.
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agricola
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Re: Ask about Judaism

Post by agricola »

Here's a big difference from a typical coc approach to a passage from scripture, and a typical Jewish one: the coc says there is one and only one correct way to understand it. The Jew says anybody who can't come up with at least 70 different ways to understand it isn't trying hard enough.
History is the fiction we invent to persuade ourselves that events are knowable and that life has order and direction. That's why events are always reinterpreted when values change. We need new versions of history to allow for our current prejudices.
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teresa
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Re: Ask about Judaism

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Out of curiosity, what are they talking about -- passing things in and out of a house? Why would that be a transgression of the law, if that is what they are saying? Is this kind of like case law, that judges used as guides to making decisions?

I don't know if I would be interested enough to read the Talmud.
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agricola
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Re: Ask about Judaism

Post by agricola »

Ha! This is a PERFECT example of why the Talmud is a 'sea'! There is no 'start point'!

You are supposed to ALREADY know what they are talking about. And what this mishnah says is about a rule on Shabbat observance, where carrying a burden outside of 'home' is a transgression. So where exactly is carrying (and handing off something to another person) perfectly okay and where is it a transgression? Define a 'threshold' where the act of handing something to another changes from 'perfectly okay' to 'punishable by death'?

You can haul your furniture all over the house, for instance, any day of the week. But on the Sabbath, you can't carry ANYTHING into (or out of) a 'public space'.

The kind of house in this example is typical for the time and place, and the door (and windows) would open directly onto the public street.
History is the fiction we invent to persuade ourselves that events are knowable and that life has order and direction. That's why events are always reinterpreted when values change. We need new versions of history to allow for our current prejudices.
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teresa
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Re: Ask about Judaism

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Are these paragraphs under a section called "Sabbath laws", or something like that? If not, I don't see how anyone could know what these paragraphs were about unless there is a Bible scripture referenced or the person had previously been told about it.
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agricola
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Re: Ask about Judaism

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Like I said earlier, the Talmud basically assumes that everybody involved ALREADY knows the basics of all this stuff and therefore doesn't need to be told, just needs to study and learn the fine points. And because the Gemara (in particular) is a discussion that is kicked off by the Mishnah - it can go just about anywhere.


One of the orders (I forget which) starts with a Mishnah about when to say the morning Shema. It doesn't tell you what the Shema is, or why you want to say it in the morning (although that is alluded to in the discussion) nor does it actually come down with a TIME - it just says 'after this point but before that point, basically - and the information about the start point has to do with the first visible light in the morning, but the end point simply references ANOTHER prayer service - so if you don't know THAT, you don't understand (can't understand) the discussion about when to say the morning Shema.

The Talmud might be a sea, but it has very few shallow places in it. Mostly you jump in and home you don't drown.
History is the fiction we invent to persuade ourselves that events are knowable and that life has order and direction. That's why events are always reinterpreted when values change. We need new versions of history to allow for our current prejudices.
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agricola
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Re: Ask about Judaism

Post by agricola »

Here's the first mishnah from Bava Metzia (another tractate) - it is about the laws of items lost and found...the gemara continues for - literally - pages. This is only part of it - and does not include the (rather copious) commentaries:
MISHNA I.: Two persons, who hold a garment, and each of them claims that he has found it, or that the whole belongs to him, (in such a case) each of them shall take an oath that no less than a half belongs to him, and then its value shall be divided. If, however, one claims the whole and the other half of it, then the oath for the first must be for no less than three quarters, and for the second no less than a quarter, and it is to be divided accordingly. The same is the case with an animal, if both are riding; or, if one is riding and one leading, each of them must take an oath that no less than a half belongs to him, if both claim for the whole, and so they divide. If, however, there are wit. nesses, or they admit the fact, then it is to be divided without any oath.

GEMARA: Why is it stated: "Each of them claims he has found it, or the whole garment belongs to him"--is not one of them sufficient? R. Papa, according to others R. Shimi bar Ashi or Kadi, says: The first part speaks about a found article, and the last one about a transaction, and both cases are necessary. For when the case of a found only, only a found article should be stated, one may say that the rabbis ordered an oath, because it is only a found article, of which each of them may say: My neighbor would lose nothing even if I claim the whole and get half of it, which is not the case in a transaction (as the buyer paid for it, and if it would not be necessary for him he would not do so). On the other hand, if the last part only should be stated, one may say: "The rabbis have given an oath to both of them, because each of them may say: As the same money my neighbor claims that he has given, I also have given, therefore I have a right to keep it for myself, and my neighbor shall go to the trouble to buy another, which is not the case with a found article, and therefore in the former case an oath would not be ordered." Hence both cases are necessary.

"Transaction!" Let us see from whom the money was taken. The case was, that both paid the money, one with the consent of the seller and the other against the seller's will, but the seller does not recollect to which of them he had given the consent (hence the order of the oaths).

Shall we assume that our Mishna is not in accord with Ben Nanas, who says: "An oath cannot be ordered to both, as one I of them would surely swear falsely"? The Mishna can be explained even in accord with Ben Nanas, as he speaks of a case where one of them would surely swear falsely. Here, in case of a found article, it may happen that both of them has picked it lip at the same time?

Shall we then assume that our Mishna is not in accord with Symmachus, who says: "That money which is doubtful is to be divided without an oath"? (See First Gate, page 3.) With whom, then, is the Mishna in accord? With the rabbis who are the opponents of Symmachus; do they not say that it is always incumbent on the plaintiff to bring evidence? What comparison is there? In the case where one of them is a plaintiff, and the other a defendant, the rabbis say that it is incumbent on the plaintiff to bring evidence. Here, however, when they both held a thing, they ordered an oath. But according to the theory of Symmachus, even in the case where there is a plaintiff and defendant, it is to be divided without an oath. Moreover, here, as both are holding it, it can be said that even Symmachus would agree with our Mishna, as the oath mentioned is rabbinical only, for R. Johanan says that the oath is an enactment of the sages to prevent one from going out and taking hold of his neighbor's property, claiming it as his.

At any rate, our Mishna is not in accord with R. Jose, who says (Chapter III., Mishna 106): "If so is the case, what can the defrauder lose? therefore, the whole amount must be deposited until there will be evidence." Let us then see if our Mishna can be explained in accord with the rabbis, the opponents of R. Jose, who say that the part in doubt should be deposited until Elijah will come." Is not the case in our Mishna similar to the case there, as both claims are doubtful? What comparison is it?

It does not belong to both parties, but to one of them; the rabbis ordered it should be deposited "until Elijah will come." Here, however, there is a possibility that the article belongs to both parties, so they ordered an oath; but R. Jose maintained that even where it is certain that both parties have a share in the money in question, he nevertheless decided that the money should be deposited "until Elijah will come." Moreover, here, it is probable that the article belongs to one party. (Therefore our Mishna is in accord with the rabbis and not with R. Jose.)

According to both the rabbis and R. Jose, how should the following Mishna be understood: "A storekeeper upon his credit-book (if it is found that he has given something by the order of the employer to his working-men, and they deny having received anything), both take an oath, and collect the money from the employer"? Now, one of them has surely sworn falsely; why should it not be here the same also, that the money should be collected from the employer and deposited "until Elijah will come," as one of them is surely a defrauder? It can be said there is another reason. The storekeeper may say to the employer: I have followed your order, and I have nothing to do with your working-men, whom I would not believe even with an oath, and it was your fault that you did not order me to give the goods only in the presence of witnesses or to take a receipt from him. The working-man can say to the employer: You must pay me for my work, and I have nothing to do with your storekeeper, whom I would not believe even with an oath; and therefore both collect the money from the employer after they have sworn.

R. Hyya taught: If the plaintiff says that the defendant owes him a hundred zuz and the defendant denies owing him anything, and witnesses, however, testify that they only know that he owes him fifty, he must give him fifty, and take an oath for the remainder. The reason is that the admission of the defendant himself shall not be stronger than the testimony of witnesses, 1 and this I have concluded by drawing an a fortiori conclusion, and also our Mishna supports me by its statement:

"When two are holding a garment," etc. We are the witnesses that each of them holds what he claims to be his, without any admission by his opponent, and, nevertheless, it is stated that each of them must take an oath.

Why was it necessary to draw an a fortiori conclusion for the above statement? Lest one say that a biblical oath is given only when there is an admission in part from the defendant, and the reason is, as Rabba declared elsewhere: "Why do the Scriptures decide that one who admits to a part of the claim must take an oath? Because usually one is not so bold as to deny the whole in the face of his creditor, and therefore he admits partly, even had he intended to do so before his creditor appeared, and therefore he only denies a part of it; and it may be that even their denial is only to gain time for the investigation, thinking that in the meantime he will get cash, and will pay the whole claim; and, therefore, the Scripture prescribes an oath in such a case, which is to be believed, that a man with such intention will refuse to swear falsely, and would rather admit the debt of the whole amount. But in case he denies, and witnesses testify against him, in which case the intention above cannot be supposed? No oath is prescribed, he must pay according to the testimony of the witnesses, and shall be acquitted. Therefore it was necessary for him (R. Hyya) to deduce it, by drawing an a fortiori conclusion, as follows:

The admission from his own mouth, which does not cause fine, nevertheless causes an oath; witnesses who cause fine, so much the more they should cause an oath. 1

Let us see, then, what R. Hyya means in saying that he has support from our Mishna? How can the case in the Mishna be compared to his case? In the case of R. Hyya the creditor had witnesses, and the borrower had none at all; then if he would have witnesses who would testify that he owes him nothing, R. Hyya certainly would not order an oath. But in our Mishna, as we are witnesses for one party, we are also witnesses for the other party, and nevertheless an oath is ordered. (Consequently the Mishna orders an oath, not because of admission in part, in which case a biblical oath would be necessary, but only a rabbinical oath as stated above.) Therefore, if it was taught that R. Hyya had said he had a support from our Mishna, it was said in regard to another statement of his as follows: "If the plaintiff claims a hundred and the defendant says only fifty, and here they are, he is, however, obliged to take an oath upon the remainder. Why so? Because "here they are" is considered an admission in part; that is, although "here they are" means that "your claim is now settled, and I owe you nothing," it is nevertheless considered an admission in part. And the support of the Mishna is this: As they both hold the garment, we are witnesses that each of them says, "Take what you hold, and the remainder is mine," and this is equal to the claim "here they are," and nevertheless an oath is ordered.

R. Shesheth, however, says: "When he says, 'here they are,' there is no oath. Why? Because 'here they are' is considered as if the money is already in the hands of the plaintiff. Consequently the claim for the other fifty is denied entirely without any admission. But according to R. Shesheth the decision of our Mishna would be embarrassing to him. He may say that the oath in our Mishna is only an enactment of the sages.

But does not R. Hyya also agree that so it is? Yea, but if "here they are" is equal as an admission in part, and the oath is ordered biblically, the rabbis have the right to order an oath similar to the biblical one. According to R. Shesheth's theory, however, that in such a case no biblical oath should be ordered at all, how could the rabbis arrange an oath which has no analogy in the Scripture?

An objection was raised from the following Boraitha: If there was a note for Sellahs or Dinars without number, the lender claims five and the borrower says three, there must be an oath, because the third one by the borrower is an admission in part. As he could say that the plurality in the note means only two, so is the decree of R. Simeon Elazar. R. Aqiba, however, says: "The admission of the third one is to be considered as if he had returned a lost thing, and he is acquitted. Now, how the case would be if he would say only two (which would not be denied after the note is recognized), an oath would be ordered, even ac. cording to R. Aqiba's theory. Is not the note (which can be collected from his real estate) considered as "here they are," and, nevertheless, an oath would be necessary? Infer then from this that such is the law with all claims which are defended with here they are."

Nay, it can be said that even when he admits only two, there is no oath, and the expression "three" is mentioned only to deny the theory of R. Simeon, who takes three for an admission in part, for which the law prescribes an oath. And so also seems to be common sense that, according to R. Aqiba, even if he would say only two, he is free from an oath. Then if not so, how can he make him free, when he admits three? It could be a trick on his part to admit three and to be free from any obligation, as he would know that when, if he should claim only two, an oath would be given to him. Infer from this, that so it is. But if it is so, then it contradicts R. Hyya, who says that "here they are" does not prevent an oath. Nay, here in our case of the note, "here they are" is not the reason, but because the note is a support to his assertion, or it can be explained the note implies a mortgage on real estate, and there is no oath in a case where real estate is claimed.

Come and hear (another objection): We learned that the father of R. Aputriki had taught in the first case of R. Hyya just ''the reverse of R. Hyya, viz.: "If one claims a hundred, and the other denies all, and there are witnesses for fifty, lest one say there should be given an oath, because the testimony of the witnesses should be considered as an admission in part; therefore it is written [Ex. xxii. 8]: 'For any manner of lost things, of which he can say, this it is,' which means the liability is only when he admits with his own mouth, but not by the testimony of witnesses." (Hence it contradicts R. Hyya.) How can you contradict R. Hyya with a Boraitha? R. Hyya is a Tana, who is authorized to differ with it. But is not the Boraitha supported by a verse of Scripture? R. Hyya may say that the question is needed for the law of an admission in part. And the Tana of the above Boraitha may say that "this it is" has one word which is superfluous. We therefore deduce from both of them, viz.: that to an admission in part an oath is necessary, and that no oath is given when witnesses testify.

There was a shepherd to whom cattle was given always in the presence of witnesses. It happened, however, one day, that it was given to him without witnesses, and he denied, and witnesses testified that he had eaten two of them. Said R. Zera: "If it I is to agree with the first case of R. Hyya, he must take an oath", for the others." Said Abayi to him: "Even should we agree, could then an oath be given to him? Is he not a robber (to whom an oath is not given)?" Rejoined R. Zera: "I mean to say, that an oath should be given to the plaintiff that he had delivered to him such, and he may collect the money."

But even if we do not agree with R. Hyya's decision, we should nevertheless give him a rabbinical oath, according to R. Na'hman's enactment concerning the following Mishna: "When one claims hundred and the other denies, he is free." Said R. Na'hman: "He is free from a biblical oath, but he must take a rabbinical oath?" Nay, that an oath which cannot be given to the defendant the plaintiff shall swear, etc., is also only an enactment of the sages, and an enactment to an enactment cannot be made.

"Why," said Abaye, "he is a robber? Even if a shepherd only, an oath could not be given to him according to R. Jehudah, who says: 'A shepherd who is not known to be trustworthy, is unfit as a witness?'" This presents no difficulty. If the shepherd keeps his own cattle, he is not fit for an oath; but if he keeps the cattle of others, he is fit; because if it would not be so, how could we confide the cattle to a shepherd? Is it not written [Lev. xix. 14]: "Nor put a stumblingblock before the blind." But we go with the rule: A man will not sin for others' benefit.

"Each of them swears," etc. What shall the oath contain? The part that he claims to have in it, and he swears that he has half of it, or he swears that he has not less than a half in it? (The difference between the two expressions is this. In case he swears to an affirmative statement, if he has not, he has sworn falsely. When, however, he swears to the negative statement, the oath is not false, even if he has nothing, as he only swears that he has not in it less than so and so, and in case he has nothing in it, he has not sworn falsely. The expression in the Mishna, however, is in the negative, and therefore the question.) Said R. Huna: "He swears both. 'I have some claim in it, and not less than a half.'" But why not in an affirmative manner: "I swear that I a half belongs to me"? Then he would contradict his claim that the whole garment belongs to him. And even in the negative manner, does he not contradict his claim? If he says: "According to my knowledge, the whole is mine, but at all events I swear that at least no less than a half belongs to me. But, after all, as they both hold the garment and the oath is ordered to both equally, why the oath at all? Let them divide without an oath?" Said R. Johanan: "This oath is not biblically at all, it is only an enactment of the sages, for the purpose that one shall not take possession of his neighbor's property, claiming that it is his, or he has a share in it; therefore the oath. But if he is suspected in the case of money, why should he be trusted in an oath?" Nay, the "theory of because" (because he is suspected in the, case of money, should he be also suspected in an oath?) we do not act upon. And a support to it we can find in the Scripture, which ordered an oath in an admission in part; and if it would be customary that whoever is suspected in a case of money, should be also suspected of swearing falsely, why then the oath? This above support, however, can be dismissed thus: In the case of an admission in part, there is no suspicion at all. The defendant merely had not the whole amount in cash, but only a part of it, and he taught: I will admit now only the part I have in cash, and the remainder I will give afterwards. And it is as Rabba stated before, p. 238. This can also be proved from the statement of R. Idi bar Abin in the name of Hisda: "One who denies falsely a money loan is nevertheless qualified to be a witness, but whoever denies a deposit (which was given to him only to,, take care of, and he falsely denies it) is disqualified to be a witness." But why shall we not say if he denies a deposit, that merely he could not find it then, and therefore he denies it, intending, however, to return it when it will be found? He is disqualified only in the case where there are witnesses that the deposit was in his house when he denied it, and he had knowledge of it, or the witnesses testified that he was holding it in his hand. But did not R. Shesheth say: "For the following three things: (a) That I have not neglected it, (b) I have not made use of it, and (c) I am positive it is not under my control, the oath was given"? (This is the case of a gratuitous bailee, who is not liable when it is stolen.) Now, why then should he be trusted with the oath? Let "the theory of because" he is suspected in a case of money, he should also be suspected in an oath, also be applied here. Say, then, that such a theory we do not practise. Abayi, however, says that the reason for the statement in our Mishna, to make them both swear, is not as R. Johanan explains, because in such a case an oath would not be trusted to him, but we suppose that his claim is because he has an old loan of money, which is forgotten by the other, and therefore he takes possession of the garment claiming it is his, because in reality all personal property is a security for the loan. If it is so, let them take the garment without an oath? We are not supposing a certain loan, but that he is in doubt about it. But when he is doubtful, and he nevertheless takes possession of his neighbor's property, let him be suspected, that he will also swear in such a case? Said R. Shesheth, the son of R. Idi: Usually men restrain themselves from taking an oath on a doubtful thing, although they are not averse to taking possession of property doubtfully, because money can be returned, which is not the case with an oath.

R. Sera propounded a question: "When one of the two holders overcame the other and took it away, what is the law?" Let us see how was the case? If the other party keeps silence, then he admits; and if he objects, what more could he do, when his opponent is stronger than he? The case was, that previously he was silent, and afterwards he objected, and the question is: Shall we assume that because he was silent he has admitted, or perhaps the reason he kept silent previously was because it was done in the presence of the rabbis, who could testify in the case? Said R. Na'hman: Come and hear (in addition to our Mishna, there is a Boraitha, as follows): "All this is said only when both are holding the garment; but if only one holds it, and the other claims the ownership of it, the rule that the plaintiff is to bring evidence applies here also." Now, let us see; if one would claim ownership of personal property which is in the possession of another, the statement of the Boraitha would be entirely superfluous, as it is self-evident. We must say, then, that the case was as R. Zera stated it. Nay; this can be explained as follows: They appear before the court when one took possession of the whole garment, and the other put only his hand upon a small piece of it. In such a case an oath is necessary, even according to the theory of Symmachus, who says that doubtful money is to be divided without an oath; he would agree, however, in this case, because the laying of one's hand upon a piece of it counts for nothing.

If the law were that of one overcome, and took possession in the presence of the court, and the court decided that it should be taken away from him, and in the meantime he had consecrated it, there is no question but that such an act at that time cannot be considered. But if the court would decide to leave it in his possession, should he have overcome the other, and he as yet not taking possession of it, consecrated it, what is the law? Shall we say, because the master says elsewhere: "The consecration by word of mouth only is equivalent to delivering to a common person," in our case shall his mere word of mouth be considered as equivalent to his overcoming and taking it away (and then the thing is certainly consecrated), or perhaps it is not so, because it is not yet in his possession, and it is written [Lev. xxiv. 14]: "And if a man sanctify his house," of which it is to be inferred that, as his house is under his control, so he can consecrate it, so everything which is under his control, but not otherwise, can be consecrated, and in our case it is not yet under his control? Come and hear: There was a bath-house about which two parties quarrelled, each of them claiming it was his property. Then one of them arose and consecrated it. And R. Hanania and R. Aushia and other rabbis did not use this bath any more. And R. Aushia said to Rabba: "When you go to see R. Hisda in Kopri, question him about this case." When Rabba went to Kopri, he passed by Sura, and he questioned R. Hamnuna, and the latter answered him thus: It is decided in a Mishna [Thaharoth, Chap. IV., 12], which states: "If there is a doubt about a first-born, be it of a human being or of an animal, clean ones (which are allowed to be eaten) or unclean ones, the rule that the plaintiff must bring evidence is applied to it." And a Boraitha, in an addition to this Mishna, states: "They are nevertheless prohibited from shearing their wool and to use them for labor." Now, it is certain that if the priest took it away, the court would not compel him to return it, because then he would be the defendant, and the other party must bring evidence. And still, even when the priest did not yet take it away, it is said that it must not be used for labor, as stated above. (Hence we see that even when it is doubtful, it is nevertheless consecrated.) Rejoined Rabba: "You compare this with the consecration of a first-born! There is a difference, as its consecration comes by itself without being consecrated by a human being, and therefore it must be used for labor, no matter under whose control it is."

But what is the law in the above case of the bath-house, after all? Come and hear: R. Hyya bar Abin said: "A similar case happened to R. Hisda, and he questioned R. Huna, and his decision was based upon R. Na'hman's following decision: That such property which must be replevined by the court, even if it is f'; consecrated by one of the parties, it is not holy." But how is it if it could be replevined? The consecration would be valid, although he did not as yet take possession thereof. Did not R. Johanan say: "If one has robbed a thing, and the owner has not yet resigned the hope to regaining it, it cannot be consecrated by one of them? (See First Gate, page 155.) Do you think the bath-house in question was a movable property, to which the rule that the plaintiff must bring evidence applies? This was a real estate, that, if he can replevin it by the decision of the court, it is considered as if it were already under his control."

R. Thalifa of Palestine taught in the presence of R. Abbahu: "If two appear before the court, both holding one garment, each of them gets the part he holds in his hand, and the remainder they divide equally." Remonstrated R. Abbahu: But not without an oath. (Asked the Gemara): If it is so, how is our Mishna to be explained, which states: It shall be divided, and it does not state that, 'only the part that he holds in his hand.' How is the case to be explained? Said R. Papa: When both hold only the χερχοξ (the fringes). Said R. Mesharshias: "Infer from this that a sudarium, which usually the buyer must take in his hand when he wishes to consummate his agreement, 1 is enough when he takes in his hand the size of three fingers square, as this piece which he holds is considered as if cut off, and the expression [Ruth, iv. 7], "and gave it to the other," is applied.

Rabha said: "The case in our Mishna, even when the garment was covered with gold (on some places), it is nevertheless to be divided. Is this not self-evident? Rabha means to say that the gold cover was placed in the centre of the garment. But even this is self-evident? The case was that the gold covering was nearer to the hand of one of the parties. Lest one say, that the garment shall be divided so that the gold shall remain his share, he comes to teach us that the other party has the right to demand that the gold shall also be divided.

The rabbis taught: When two hold a note (the lender and the borrower), the lender claims: "The note is not yet paid, but I dropped it, and it was found by the borrower"; and the borrower says: "The note is paid, and it is mine now"; the note is still in force, if the signature is certified to by the court. So is the decree of Rabbi. R. Simeon ben Gamaliel, however, says: "The value of it must be divided." If, however, the note falls into the hands of the judge, nobody can compel him to give it away. R. Jose, however, says: "Even then the note is in full force."
History is the fiction we invent to persuade ourselves that events are knowable and that life has order and direction. That's why events are always reinterpreted when values change. We need new versions of history to allow for our current prejudices.
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agricola
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Re: Ask about Judaism

Post by agricola »

The important thing to grasp from this, I believe, is that the title of 'rabbi' meaning 'my teacher', refers to someone who is learned in the Law - and the Law is the Torah, the Word of God. If you look at the Book of Leviticus, you see that a large part of it (and Numbers too, and Deuteronomy) consists of legal material: decisions governing any and all aspects of life in a community.

Jews say: God loves us so much, God gives us good laws to live by.
So the word of God - the Torah - presents laws to live by. And a rabbi is really a LEGAL scholar, and the discussions of these rabbis - these 'schools' - are schools of legal interpretation.

And this legal interpretation is HIGHLY important, because every bit of these discussions is 'for the sake of Heaven' (i.e., for God).

One rabbi is quoted as saying that the topics like mathematics, physics, medicine etcetera, constitute PERIPHERAL knowledge. The core 'knowledge' was knowing God, and the way to know God was/is to study the Law: the Torah's laws.

Usually people in the Christian-dominant nations think of a rabbi as a Jewish equivalent of a preacher or priest, and that is absolutely NOT the case. A rabbi is an expert on Jewish law and customs and history. Some - a relative few, actually - become 'congregational rabbis' and deal with congregations - they preach and do counseling, and teach 'religious school'. But that is only ONE sort of job which rabbis do. MOST rabbis are not congregational rabbis at all. Being a congregational rabbi is a kind of specialty, among a whole variety of OTHER things a rabbi might specialize in. My neice's husband is a rabbi, and he is a specialist in the laws of kashrut (kosher foods). He works for a kosher grocery store. I know another rabbi who is a neonatal surgical specialist. He got his rabbinic ordination just because he enjoys studying.

A rabbi is primarily a scholar, period. Some do it full time, others as an avocation and they have 'day jobs'. Many of the rabbis mentioned in the Gemara had 'day jobs'. Shammai was a builder and relatively wealthy. Hillel was poor. Some were woodcutters, or winemakers (Rashi ran a vineyard) or anything else.
History is the fiction we invent to persuade ourselves that events are knowable and that life has order and direction. That's why events are always reinterpreted when values change. We need new versions of history to allow for our current prejudices.
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agricola
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Joined: Fri Oct 10, 2014 10:31 pm

Re: Ask about Judaism

Post by agricola »

Plenty of Jews don't study Talmud - but current Jewish practice is almost entirely a product of those discussions. And if you ask a typical Jew why they do something or other (like light two candles on Shabbat, or keep separate sets of dishes), they'll say: it's in the Torah.

Except it isn't.....it's from the discussions of scholars over a period of centuries discussing what the Torah MEANS.


For Christians - almost all the instances in the NT when the gospels say that 'a certain Pharisee' or 'some Pharisees' asked Jesus a question about something he or the apostles did, they were engaging him in a TOTALLY normal fashion, discussing the applicable interpretation of proper observance of the Law. This was before Judah the Prince complied the Mishna: every legal decision or opinion was passed on orally, and different schools had different interpretations. All those people were doing was feeling out where Jesus 'fit' on the overall spectrum of interpretation and opinion.

Kindly note that you never, ever, find a SADDUCEE asking Jesus anything at all, or an Essene either. His audience was almost entirely made up of Pharisees and folks leaning toward that philosophy.

What did Jesus ACTUALLY say about Pharisees?
He told his apostles to pay attention to their decisions, because 'they sit in the seat of Moses': which means, they have the genuine authority that Moses had, passed down directly from Moses. What Jesus WARNED the apostles about, relative to the Pharisees, was to watch out for the ones who made claim to that philosophy, but did not in fact follow that path ('hypocrites').

What distinguished Pharisees from Sadducees and others in the first century?
Their beliefs:
They believed in an End of Time, with a Judgement Day, and an Afterlife.
They believed in the existence of the Soul.
They believed God cared passionately about your inner being - your 'heart', and that having a 'good heart' was better than being perfectly correct in everything.
History is the fiction we invent to persuade ourselves that events are knowable and that life has order and direction. That's why events are always reinterpreted when values change. We need new versions of history to allow for our current prejudices.
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