Ask about Judaism
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Fellow Traveler
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- Joined: Mon Oct 27, 2014 4:48 pm
Re: Ask about Judaism
Agricola, have you had any interaction with the Chabad-Lubavich group of Orthodox Judaism?
Re: Ask about Judaism
joke:
Q:How do we know there is no life on Mars?
A: Because there's no Chabad House there!
Of course I have. They are almost literally everywhere you go. I know some very nice Lubavitchers. Think of them sort of as Jewish Amish or something.
Q:How do we know there is no life on Mars?
A: Because there's no Chabad House there!
Of course I have. They are almost literally everywhere you go. I know some very nice Lubavitchers. Think of them sort of as Jewish Amish or something.
History is the fiction we invent to persuade ourselves that events are knowable and that life has order and direction. That's why events are always reinterpreted when values change. We need new versions of history to allow for our current prejudices.
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Fellow Traveler
- Posts: 31
- Joined: Mon Oct 27, 2014 4:48 pm
Re: Ask about Judaism
I know they just built a beautiful new Jewish center in Nashville. I would love to visit it sometime if they are ok with visitors. I have been to a handful of services at a couple of reform synagogues only. I've had a deep respect for the Jewish faith, traditions, and customs since I was a teenager.
Re: Ask about Judaism
hmmm well - Chabad won't mind if you visit. They are a bit different from 'regular' Jews though. They are even a bit different from other Hasidic groups!
That's the same 'Ch' as in 'Chanukah' by the way.
Lubavitch Hasidim are the most gregarious/outgoing of the Hasidic groups. All Hasidic groups arose out of a popular movement which began in Poland/Ukraine in the middle-late 1700's. It stressed 'heart' over 'perfect education and knowledge'. Charismatic wandering preachers and teachers led groups of dedicated followers, which eventually became hereditary dynastic families, each one a bit different in practice and dress. There used to be hundreds of such groups but the Holocaust pretty much wiped out a whole lot of them.
They are the stereotypical 'Jews' that wear the black clothes and the hats and have beards (the men have beards - the women wear clothes that typically cover everything but hands and face, and most wear either a wig or scarf - or sometimes both! - every time they go out in public.
The different groups are usually called by the name of the town where the group was originally centered.
They are unusual (among Jews) for their central focus on 'the rebbe' of their particular group. The 'rebbe' has enormous influence and enjoys great prestige. In the early days of the movement, most rebbes were considered to have magical mystical powers, able to control the weather, foretell the future - all sorts of things.
Lubavitcher Hasidim (the source of the organization called 'Chabad') are a bit more - oh, I don't know - intellectual? At any rate, Chabad's mission (and it IS a mission) is to do outreach TO JEWS to bring them 'up' to a 'more holy level' by doing something more Jewishly than they were doing before. They do outreach. They run preschools. They have free services for holidays (that's unusual). They print books. They send nice young boys in suits to go door to door....well, not exactly door to door, because they aren't interested in talking to NON Jews, just to Jews. Chabad takes young men with rabbinical degrees and a wife, and sends them out to random spots all over the world, with enough money to make it for about two years - after that, they are expected to support themselves, and build a following, and provide a local center for Jewish life - a school, a synagogue, whatever. And they do it, which is why there is a Chabad house in Nepal, and in Perth, and in London, and in Nashville.
Because they are welcoming and have services open to the public, they get a fair number of visiting interested non-Jews. They don't mind, exactly, but that's not their target audience, and they don't do conversions.
Go ahead and go, just don't think they are typical. They aren't typical.
That's the same 'Ch' as in 'Chanukah' by the way.
Lubavitch Hasidim are the most gregarious/outgoing of the Hasidic groups. All Hasidic groups arose out of a popular movement which began in Poland/Ukraine in the middle-late 1700's. It stressed 'heart' over 'perfect education and knowledge'. Charismatic wandering preachers and teachers led groups of dedicated followers, which eventually became hereditary dynastic families, each one a bit different in practice and dress. There used to be hundreds of such groups but the Holocaust pretty much wiped out a whole lot of them.
They are the stereotypical 'Jews' that wear the black clothes and the hats and have beards (the men have beards - the women wear clothes that typically cover everything but hands and face, and most wear either a wig or scarf - or sometimes both! - every time they go out in public.
The different groups are usually called by the name of the town where the group was originally centered.
They are unusual (among Jews) for their central focus on 'the rebbe' of their particular group. The 'rebbe' has enormous influence and enjoys great prestige. In the early days of the movement, most rebbes were considered to have magical mystical powers, able to control the weather, foretell the future - all sorts of things.
Lubavitcher Hasidim (the source of the organization called 'Chabad') are a bit more - oh, I don't know - intellectual? At any rate, Chabad's mission (and it IS a mission) is to do outreach TO JEWS to bring them 'up' to a 'more holy level' by doing something more Jewishly than they were doing before. They do outreach. They run preschools. They have free services for holidays (that's unusual). They print books. They send nice young boys in suits to go door to door....well, not exactly door to door, because they aren't interested in talking to NON Jews, just to Jews. Chabad takes young men with rabbinical degrees and a wife, and sends them out to random spots all over the world, with enough money to make it for about two years - after that, they are expected to support themselves, and build a following, and provide a local center for Jewish life - a school, a synagogue, whatever. And they do it, which is why there is a Chabad house in Nepal, and in Perth, and in London, and in Nashville.
Because they are welcoming and have services open to the public, they get a fair number of visiting interested non-Jews. They don't mind, exactly, but that's not their target audience, and they don't do conversions.
Go ahead and go, just don't think they are typical. They aren't typical.
History is the fiction we invent to persuade ourselves that events are knowable and that life has order and direction. That's why events are always reinterpreted when values change. We need new versions of history to allow for our current prejudices.
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Fellow Traveler
- Posts: 31
- Joined: Mon Oct 27, 2014 4:48 pm
Re: Ask about Judaism
Thanks for the information. When you say they "don't do conversions", I understand that they aren't interested in converting non Jews, but what if a non Jew WANTED to join that particular faith? In fact, how does any sect of Judaism take in adult converts? Just curious.
Re: Ask about Judaism
Lubavitchers don't do conversions, period. The only 'conversions' they are interested in is bringing non- or less-observant Jews closer to orthodox practice. They aren't necessarily interested in bringing them to Lubavitch orthodox practice, even.
Judaism isn't only a 'religion' - that is just a way to explain it to us Westerners. Judaism is the whole spectrum of doctrine AND daily life of the Jewish people. Jewish law is exactly like Shari'a law: it covers everything - what we break up into 'civil' and 'religious' laws, Judaism (and Islam) consider exactly the same - there is no separation, really.
However, Judaism is considerably older than Islam, and has reached accommodation with ordinary 'secular' laws in the nations in which Jews live - this includes Israel, by the way, which is NOT a 'religious state' and although there is an official state religion in Israel (Judaism), citizenship is not restricted to Jews, and people can believe (or not) anything they like, quite legally. I don't think very many Jews would like to be ruled entirely by 'Judaic law' (which we call halakhah: the Way).
At any rate, since Judaism is not ONLY a 'religion', converting to Judaism is much more complicated than simply believing and assenting to a series of belief statements. Judaism requires (at least the knowledge of if not complete practice of) living as a Jew.
So most 'conversion to Judaism' programs require a time commitment of several months to a year or more, of study and practice - and THEN you go in front of a panel of Judges and take an exam.
Got to head to work right this minute - finish later, okay?
Judaism isn't only a 'religion' - that is just a way to explain it to us Westerners. Judaism is the whole spectrum of doctrine AND daily life of the Jewish people. Jewish law is exactly like Shari'a law: it covers everything - what we break up into 'civil' and 'religious' laws, Judaism (and Islam) consider exactly the same - there is no separation, really.
However, Judaism is considerably older than Islam, and has reached accommodation with ordinary 'secular' laws in the nations in which Jews live - this includes Israel, by the way, which is NOT a 'religious state' and although there is an official state religion in Israel (Judaism), citizenship is not restricted to Jews, and people can believe (or not) anything they like, quite legally. I don't think very many Jews would like to be ruled entirely by 'Judaic law' (which we call halakhah: the Way).
At any rate, since Judaism is not ONLY a 'religion', converting to Judaism is much more complicated than simply believing and assenting to a series of belief statements. Judaism requires (at least the knowledge of if not complete practice of) living as a Jew.
So most 'conversion to Judaism' programs require a time commitment of several months to a year or more, of study and practice - and THEN you go in front of a panel of Judges and take an exam.
Got to head to work right this minute - finish later, okay?
History is the fiction we invent to persuade ourselves that events are knowable and that life has order and direction. That's why events are always reinterpreted when values change. We need new versions of history to allow for our current prejudices.
Re: Ask about Judaism
So - (now home again) - converting to Judaism requires commitment, a course of study, and (something I think is really kind of hilarious for a group called 'the People of the Book') then you pass your oral exams (sometimes written too!).
There's a popular Yiddish saying: It is hard to be a Jew. (It isn't referring to all the learning, but it could have been)
Look: Jews are a nation. A people. There is certainly a genetic component, but people CAN (and do) convert. But at base, really, Jews are a tribal people, and Judaism is the tribal religion. Keeping kosher is the tribal food custom, and we have a tribal language (Hebrew), a tribal way of dress (tallit with tzitzit (fringes)), and tribal folkways (music traditions, storytelling traditions, charitable giving traditions....). So becoming a Jew - converting to Judaism is only part of it. And there IS a lot to learn.
Another saying: an ignorant man cannot be pious.
A pejorative name: am ha-aretz (literally, a person of the land - idiomatically, a hayseed, someone uneducated, a rube)
Not so nice but common saying: he (or she) has a 'yiddishe kop' - a 'Jewish head' - idiomatically, he/she is smart, clever (by implication, non-Jews aren't so much).
For centuries, the most admired men (almost always men) and the men most ardently sought after as husbands, were the really smart ones.
More jokes (jokes are really revealing): Jewish mother walking her toddlers is asked, 'how old are they?' she answers: 'the doctor is three and the lawyer is two'.
Another: what do you call a Jewish undergraduate student? Ans: a fetus.
How do you know a Jewish household? Ans: by the books piled up everywhere (not a joke, but true anyway)
Culturally - then, Jews value:
Education
Family
Smarts
(we even see that in Genesis - who 'wins'? Jacob, the smart one)
Look at other Biblical heroes? Generally speaking (with at least one notable exception) they 'win' by being smart, by being clever - this is how you survive violent times when you aren't really very strong or important: by being clever, and smart, and fast. David was all three.
A lot of this is stereotypes, but all stereotypes start somewhere - they just mask a lot of diversity under a single 'face'.
There's a popular Yiddish saying: It is hard to be a Jew. (It isn't referring to all the learning, but it could have been)
Look: Jews are a nation. A people. There is certainly a genetic component, but people CAN (and do) convert. But at base, really, Jews are a tribal people, and Judaism is the tribal religion. Keeping kosher is the tribal food custom, and we have a tribal language (Hebrew), a tribal way of dress (tallit with tzitzit (fringes)), and tribal folkways (music traditions, storytelling traditions, charitable giving traditions....). So becoming a Jew - converting to Judaism is only part of it. And there IS a lot to learn.
Another saying: an ignorant man cannot be pious.
A pejorative name: am ha-aretz (literally, a person of the land - idiomatically, a hayseed, someone uneducated, a rube)
Not so nice but common saying: he (or she) has a 'yiddishe kop' - a 'Jewish head' - idiomatically, he/she is smart, clever (by implication, non-Jews aren't so much).
For centuries, the most admired men (almost always men) and the men most ardently sought after as husbands, were the really smart ones.
More jokes (jokes are really revealing): Jewish mother walking her toddlers is asked, 'how old are they?' she answers: 'the doctor is three and the lawyer is two'.
Another: what do you call a Jewish undergraduate student? Ans: a fetus.
How do you know a Jewish household? Ans: by the books piled up everywhere (not a joke, but true anyway)
Culturally - then, Jews value:
Education
Family
Smarts
(we even see that in Genesis - who 'wins'? Jacob, the smart one)
Look at other Biblical heroes? Generally speaking (with at least one notable exception) they 'win' by being smart, by being clever - this is how you survive violent times when you aren't really very strong or important: by being clever, and smart, and fast. David was all three.
A lot of this is stereotypes, but all stereotypes start somewhere - they just mask a lot of diversity under a single 'face'.
History is the fiction we invent to persuade ourselves that events are knowable and that life has order and direction. That's why events are always reinterpreted when values change. We need new versions of history to allow for our current prejudices.
Re: Ask about Judaism
Bottom line: conversion to Judaism isn't agreeing to everything Judaism teaches about 'God' nearly so much as it is joining a family, being adopted, changing your identity. I sometimes hear from people who read books and say they want to convert because they think Judaism is' 'right', but they don't like Jews so much, and I'm like, Then Don't Convert. Because by converting, you are being asked to BE a Jew, and it is kind of inconvenient if you don't like yourself so much. We're family. I don't like everyone in my family either, but I have to admit they are family anyway.
I studied four years first. It was probably another four or five years before I actually thought of myself as Jewish without being self conscious about it.
What I like, I suppose - or what attracted me originally - is that - truly - there are no questions that are off limits. You want to explore the idea that God is not 'all good'? Go ahead. You want to discuss radical re-interpretations of the revelation at Sinai? Come right in, there's a millenia-old tradition of re-imagining that.
I like the historical depth, the emphasis on family (and extended family), the sense of belonging, the rich layers of culture from so many countries along with the constancy of 'the Jewish take', the freedom to work through many ideas about God, the Universe and Everything, the typical 'on the other hand' response to questions because there frequently is NOT a 'single correct answer'. I like the fact that Judaism stands on its own independent of Christian thought, while Christianity must have Judaism (or at least, it's own personal odd version of it) in order to 'be right'. I like the disciplines of practice and the tie-back from season to historical event through the year's holidays and liturgy. I like the fact that, to Jews, it is perfectly in order to stand up and argue with God. It's an ancient tradition as far back as Abraham. It's in the name 'Israel': contending with God.
What do I don't like? Well I don't like chicken liver and I likely never will. I don't like gefilte fish either. But I can live with that.
What do I miss? I miss bacon, but turkey bacon is a decent substitute.
I studied four years first. It was probably another four or five years before I actually thought of myself as Jewish without being self conscious about it.
What I like, I suppose - or what attracted me originally - is that - truly - there are no questions that are off limits. You want to explore the idea that God is not 'all good'? Go ahead. You want to discuss radical re-interpretations of the revelation at Sinai? Come right in, there's a millenia-old tradition of re-imagining that.
I like the historical depth, the emphasis on family (and extended family), the sense of belonging, the rich layers of culture from so many countries along with the constancy of 'the Jewish take', the freedom to work through many ideas about God, the Universe and Everything, the typical 'on the other hand' response to questions because there frequently is NOT a 'single correct answer'. I like the fact that Judaism stands on its own independent of Christian thought, while Christianity must have Judaism (or at least, it's own personal odd version of it) in order to 'be right'. I like the disciplines of practice and the tie-back from season to historical event through the year's holidays and liturgy. I like the fact that, to Jews, it is perfectly in order to stand up and argue with God. It's an ancient tradition as far back as Abraham. It's in the name 'Israel': contending with God.
What do I don't like? Well I don't like chicken liver and I likely never will. I don't like gefilte fish either. But I can live with that.
What do I miss? I miss bacon, but turkey bacon is a decent substitute.
History is the fiction we invent to persuade ourselves that events are knowable and that life has order and direction. That's why events are always reinterpreted when values change. We need new versions of history to allow for our current prejudices.
Re: Ask about Judaism
Other than the talking snake and the talking donkey, does rabbinic tradition record other animals talking to people?
The philosophers have only interpreted the world, in various ways; the point is to change it.----Karl Marx
Re: Ask about Judaism
Not as far as I recall, BH. Those stories have usually been regarded as allegorical, although some have regarded them as specially created (miraculous) animals.
But the snake is still just a snake and the donkey was a donkey.
But the snake is still just a snake and the donkey was a donkey.
History is the fiction we invent to persuade ourselves that events are knowable and that life has order and direction. That's why events are always reinterpreted when values change. We need new versions of history to allow for our current prejudices.