My current state of belief

[ena]

Apologists are inherently dishonest..but that's just my opinion.

Some are others are enlightening. You do have to be careful.

[Lerk]

I don't post often, but wanted share an update. After 3 years of research and deliberation, I have decided that I am no longer Christian.

...

If any of you read my earlier posts, you will see a completely different tone. At this point I am trying to figure who or what is God. I am not atheist, but still seeking information. I don't believe that the god character in the bible is the true god. Recently, I wrote a withdrawal letter to elders telling them my beliefs have changed. Also told my mom last night. At this time I'm trying to deal with whatever fall out comes from it. I will admit that coming to this conclusion has been very difficult. However, I hope to get closer to the truth.

Just stumbled upon this thread. I came to ex-CoC years ago with the idea that I really wanted to change the CoC from within. I had recently realized, after a conversation with a guy at work, that what I call "baptism for the remission of sins" for the remission of sins (sounds redundant but it isn't) was not scriptural. (That is, in the CoC it's taught that if you didn't understand that salvation occurs at the point of baptism, your obedience doesn't count.) I didn't stay around long because 1) that wasn't going to work and 2) that wasn't what this board was about, and I was politely discouraged from hanging around. (And I agreed that this wasn't the place for me.)

Years later I came back as an atheist. But I still attend a CoC! (Due to family and the risk of being kept at arm's length. But not 3 times a week, and hopefully not much longer, as I see attitudes changing with this particular family member.)

Anyway, wherever you wind up, good for you for thinking for yourself about what's real and what's right!

[Cootie Brown]

Anytime a discussion board censors, deletes, edits, or outright bans posts or posters that challenge the status quo they are admitting they cannot defend their dogma, teaching, and traditions.

Actions like that are an admission they are a cult and that they cannot defend their teaching and beliefs with anything that even remotely qualifies as evidence. In that case their weapon of choice to obtain and retain believers is fear. Fear of Hell and fear of shunning are their big guns.

Teresa, to her credit, allows dissenting challenges to Christianity’s beliefs, teachings, and traditions. Other posters on the board are not as open minded as Teresa though. But I expect that and I have a pretty thick skin so the negative responses I get to some of my challenges don’t bother me. And some of them are pretty funny.

[Lerk]

At the time, there were actually two boards, and they suggested that the other one might be more appropriate for me. I don't actually remember what the difference was -- it's been a long time!

I wasn't there to cause trouble, but there were a lot of people who were still traumatized, I think, so they didn't really feel comfortable with someone still "inside" and not interested in leaving. I think I would have been asking for advice and opinions, but I could see their point so I was happy to oblige. Seems like I did get on the other board for a little while.

[kneedeep]

Just stumbled upon this thread. I came to ex-CoC years ago with the idea that I really wanted to change the CoC from within. I had recently realized, after a conversation with a guy at work, that what I call "baptism for the remission of sins" for the remission of sins (sounds redundant but it isn't) was not scriptural. (That is, in the CoC it's taught that if you didn't understand that salvation occurs at the point of baptism, your obedience doesn't count.) I didn't stay around long because 1) that wasn't going to work and 2) that wasn't what this board was about, and I was politely discouraged from hanging around. (And I agreed that this wasn't the place for me.)

Years later I came back as an atheist. But I still attend a CoC! (Due to family and the risk of being kept at arm's length. But not 3 times a week, and hopefully not much longer, as I see attitudes changing with this particular family member.)

Anyway, wherever you wind up, good for you for thinking for yourself about what's real and what's right!

Thanks, Lerk! I hope you will be free from attending this church soon! Yet I do understand the need to keep appearances. What finally led you to atheism? Right now I consider myself agnostic with some leanings towards spirituality.

I've looked into a UU Church. They are very liberal and don't force religious dogma down your throat. I enjoyed my first visit yesterday. The sermon was peaceful and uplifting. Not filled with guilt & shame, unlike the coc. There was no mention of God or anything other religious figures. I think there was always be a part of me that misses the community aspect. Five years ago you wouldn't catch me anywhere near a Unitarian Universalist church!

[Lerk]

Thanks, Lerk! I hope you will be free from attending this church soon! Yet I do understand the need to keep appearances. What finally led you to atheism? Right now I consider myself agnostic with some leanings towards spirituality.

I've looked into a UU Church. They are very liberal and don't force religious dogma down your throat. I enjoyed my first visit yesterday. The sermon was peaceful and uplifting. Not filled with guilt & shame, unlike the coc. There was no mention of God or anything other religious figures. I think there was always be a part of me that misses the community aspect. Five years ago you wouldn't catch me anywhere near a Unitarian Universalist church!

Short answer: Reading the Bible.

Longer: I was sitting in church one morning and the preacher read a couple of verses from Genesis 3. Being a good CoC'er I had turned over there, so I read the whole chapter. Then I looked around and thought to myself "there's not a person in here who believes this!" Oh, yes, probably nearly everyone believed that the story of the serpent and Eve was a historical account, but I realized that there was nothing in the chapter about Satan. The chapter is talking about a literal snake! It starts off by saying that the serpent was more subtle (or cunning, or whatever) than the beasts of the field. In other words, there's a reason a snake would do this kind of thing. And the curses at the end are for snakes. If it were Satan in the form of a snake, or Satan using a dumb animal, there's no explanation for that curse. Even the supposed "Messianic prophecy" at the end appears to be really a prophecy about the relationship between humans and snakes.

So I realized that it was just an ancient myth. Then I had to figure out what was real. Do the liberal Christian denominations have it right? That is, are these just stories that help us understand the nature of God? It took about a month for me to sort out that, as I usually describe it, if the Bible starts out with myths, transitions into legends, and then to embellished history, there's not really a place where you can start believing that the supernatural parts of the stories are real.

I've studied a lot more since then, including apologetics just to make sure I'm not missing something. There's no way I could un-know what I know short of dementia, so there's no going back. And I don't miss belief at all. Some people get really upset or feel a sense of loss, but that never happened to me. I guess what I might have missed, I had already lost, due to life circumstances (like spending time with people from church). Once the kids were grown, due to my wife's ailments (insomnia, fibromyalgia, depression) I was normally in church by myself on Sunday morning, and neither of us were really interested in spending time with people much any more. The one couple we both liked (both of us liked both of them and were comfortable around them) had moved away several years before I realized I'd been practicing mythology all of my life. So there was nothing to miss! (Now some people would say that the life situation led to my non-belief, but it did not. I was a firm believer until that morning in church, and could give a "pat" answer for the negatives in life as well as anybody.)

Glad you enjoyed your UU experience! I've been to a United CoC, an Eposcopal church, and a Presbyterian church in the last month. I enjoyed more the Presbyterian church. The UCoC was nice, and I know that they don't require their pastors to be believers. It was a 100 year old congregation! I liked some of the service, but nobody much sang. They had words to the music projected on the screen but I didn't know the songs. Maybe a different UCoC would have been more enjoyable. The UCoC makes a big deal out of being "affirming," which is great, but my wife wouldn't go for that at all.

I'm thinking my CoC preacher son, at this point, wouldn't care what denomination I go to, but if I can ever get out of the NI-CoC I won't "place membership" anywhere else, and will not be really motivated to attend. Why would I if I don't believe it? Only for appearance' sake.

Problem with some of these is that they're morning only, meaning that my wife would rarely be there. Unless we're making friends together, there's just no point. I don't want my own set of friends. She needs some because she doesn't work. But I don't see that changing anyway.

There's a mainline CoC I wouldn't mind attending whenever she's up to it, but I'm not going by myself any more.

[kneedeep]

Thanks for sharing Lerk! Its fascinating how much we were sure these stories were true until you find out they aren't. The hardest part is trying to figure out morality/philosophy on life. I suspect this process is ongoing. Everything was laid out perfectly for the majority of my life. Now I have to find reasons for holding certain moral codes. Particularly when it comes to sexuality. So much guilt and shame in this area. I'm still working through it.

I also Christian friends, but they can't understand what i"m going through. When talking about issues with the Bible, they use it as an opportunity to bring back to their Jesus. Not interested! My dad who is hardcore fundie doesn't know much, except that I don't attend church faithfully. I'm trying to avoid this conversation with him as long as possible.

Like you, I didn't experience a traumatic event that started the questions. I simply started asking questions. It started while I was in therapy. There something about this stuff that wasn't clicking for me anymore.

You are right about Satan! Its just a talking snake and someone made up a reason for why snakes slither on the ground. People point to Revelation as proof that the serpent in Genesis was Satan. Really- the first time you hear of Satan is in Job. There isn't much about this dude. For someone who supposed to be evil incarnate, there is very very little about him. Even his role is different from OT vs NT. There's much to say about this character. Its curious that YHWH had no problem killing people for the smallest offenses, yet lets Satan live..

I went to the UU church last Sunday but started getting irritable during the sermon. Not because it was bad, I just kept thinking "there are better ways to spend my time". So, it was fine the first week..but the last Sunday my brain was over it lol. I might check out the small discussion groups.

That's cool that you get to experience other churches! At least you get some break from a CoC service. UGH