Just a reminder about this forum, go back and read Teresa's expectations of this forum.
Stay positive
Atheists do NOT worship themselves or anything else
Re: Atheists do NOT worship themselves or anything else
A life lived in fear,
is a life half lived.
Glen McGuire
is a life half lived.
Glen McGuire
Re: Atheists do NOT worship themselves or anything else
I am remarkably unscared by that thought.
Anybody remember where the 'atheist church' is? I do remember an article online about it fairly recently, but (sad to admit) I didn't read past the lede.
Speaking of ledes, why is that not a word in Scrabble?
Anybody remember where the 'atheist church' is? I do remember an article online about it fairly recently, but (sad to admit) I didn't read past the lede.
Speaking of ledes, why is that not a word in Scrabble?
History is the fiction we invent to persuade ourselves that events are knowable and that life has order and direction. That's why events are always reinterpreted when values change. We need new versions of history to allow for our current prejudices.
Re: Atheists do NOT worship themselves or anything else
Thank you. It was my understanding that this particular forum is for support and questions, not criticism and debate.GMan wrote:Just a reminder about this forum, go back and read Teresa's expectations of this forum.
Stay positive
Re: Atheists do NOT worship themselves or anything else
If you think about it a church is just an assembly. I know christians like to talk about THE church, it's not the same concept at all. So, yeah some atheists gather together on Sundays. Calling it church is really tongue in cheek. There are lots of these groups in the US and Europe, and more are forming. They are often called assemblies or meetings, and are generally independently formed.A lot of the people who attend them are former religionists who feel the need for support and community and they aren't getting it elsewhere, from family or friends. There are no obligations or expectations of the attendees beyond civility.
The idea was kind of pioneered by Alain deBoton, a UK philosopher. You can see a YouTube video of his TED talk, Atheism 2.0. He has a YouTube channel and blog called the school of life.
It's not funny to me. I think it is a sad commentary on our society. Also, it is not true that all atheist's have nothing in common besides their atheism, that seems to be a deliberate misunderstanding of what has been said. There is no requirement or commonality to Being an atheist, besides non belief in the supernatural. One wonders how many times that needs to be stressed before it sinks in. It does not follow that no atheist has anything in common with another atheist.
Do all non-stamp collectors automatically have nothing else in common? Some things they do have in common are their struggles to live in a world that misunderstands and mischaracterizes them. They almost all have to find ways to deal with the religionists around them, especially family and friends. They all have to live in the modern world with its attendant issues. And most of all they are all human beings with thoughts and feelings that they would like to share and experience the sympathy and empathy of others. The Sunday assemblies address many of this things in a helpful, no dogmatic way. They also often provide education and enlightenment by having a variety of speakers give talks on topics dear to them. No one is expected to believe or buy into any particular ideology. They are free to come and go as they please.
The idea was kind of pioneered by Alain deBoton, a UK philosopher. You can see a YouTube video of his TED talk, Atheism 2.0. He has a YouTube channel and blog called the school of life.
It's not funny to me. I think it is a sad commentary on our society. Also, it is not true that all atheist's have nothing in common besides their atheism, that seems to be a deliberate misunderstanding of what has been said. There is no requirement or commonality to Being an atheist, besides non belief in the supernatural. One wonders how many times that needs to be stressed before it sinks in. It does not follow that no atheist has anything in common with another atheist.
Do all non-stamp collectors automatically have nothing else in common? Some things they do have in common are their struggles to live in a world that misunderstands and mischaracterizes them. They almost all have to find ways to deal with the religionists around them, especially family and friends. They all have to live in the modern world with its attendant issues. And most of all they are all human beings with thoughts and feelings that they would like to share and experience the sympathy and empathy of others. The Sunday assemblies address many of this things in a helpful, no dogmatic way. They also often provide education and enlightenment by having a variety of speakers give talks on topics dear to them. No one is expected to believe or buy into any particular ideology. They are free to come and go as they please.
Last edited by Turtle on Fri Nov 13, 2015 9:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Atheists do NOT worship themselves or anything else
This forum is for support and questions.
Sometimes questions might hit sensitive places, so we would like to see all posters take a generous view and consider that ignorance is far more likely to be going on, than malice, when questions hit those sensitive spots.
Especially when there is some topic with a whole lot of misinformation generally floating around!
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Sorry Turtle - yes atheists have more in common than non-belief in a god, however, that thing they do have in common is the root cause of their culturally minority status (currently), and their common experience of being marginalized and misunderstood. It is quite normal for any marginalized and misunderstood group to want to band together (once in a while anyway) and bond over common experience, if not over common beliefs.
I mean, this is what humans DO: we form communities for mutual support.
Sometimes questions might hit sensitive places, so we would like to see all posters take a generous view and consider that ignorance is far more likely to be going on, than malice, when questions hit those sensitive spots.
Especially when there is some topic with a whole lot of misinformation generally floating around!
________________________________________________________________________________________
Sorry Turtle - yes atheists have more in common than non-belief in a god, however, that thing they do have in common is the root cause of their culturally minority status (currently), and their common experience of being marginalized and misunderstood. It is quite normal for any marginalized and misunderstood group to want to band together (once in a while anyway) and bond over common experience, if not over common beliefs.
I mean, this is what humans DO: we form communities for mutual support.
History is the fiction we invent to persuade ourselves that events are knowable and that life has order and direction. That's why events are always reinterpreted when values change. We need new versions of history to allow for our current prejudices.
Re: Atheists do NOT worship themselves or anything else
Yeah, it is funny how now I notice the large numbers of famous, influential people who are atheists but don't make a big deal out of it. In fact, I see christians quoting them on facebook and I laugh, because I know they wouldn't if they knew.chrisso99 wrote:Yes, there are many different groups of atheists that do things together for lots of different reasons. The vast majority of atheists (myself included) have never been part of one. Most atheists don't advertise. Most atheists probably have t identified themselves as such to most people, if anyone. Heck, I'd bet, on average, every church with more than 100 members has an atheist or two in their pews most weeks in the US. I'd also bet there is a small but very real percentage of preachers and clergy that are atheists. You know what I have in common with activist atheists, clergy atheists, indifferent atheists, etc?
Absolutely nothing, except one thing and one thing only. Ayn Rand was a conservative hero activist and an atheist. Stalin was an atheist. Thomas Paine, one of the most influential minds behind the American Revolution, was also an atheist. Some unknown schlub in his moms basement playing Warcraft at age 37 no one will ever hear about is also an atheist.
We're everywhere. We're everyone.
Wooooooo woooooo woooooo
Re: Atheists do NOT worship themselves or anything else
Yet - it is that same reticence that makes people think that atheists are strange unnatural creatures 'other' than - all those distancing things, because most people keep their non-belief to themselves. It is sort of like being in the closet; such that people think they don't know any people 'like that' and that nobody they know (and respect) are 'like that'.
In this case, keeping silent (or being discreet or whatever) is just helping the loudmouths who denigrate atheists as 'different'.
Which I guess is my way of saying 'thank you' for starting this thread in the first place. I'm all for 'education'.
In this case, keeping silent (or being discreet or whatever) is just helping the loudmouths who denigrate atheists as 'different'.
Which I guess is my way of saying 'thank you' for starting this thread in the first place. I'm all for 'education'.
History is the fiction we invent to persuade ourselves that events are knowable and that life has order and direction. That's why events are always reinterpreted when values change. We need new versions of history to allow for our current prejudices.
Re: Atheists do NOT worship themselves or anything else
The reticence has a lot to do with many atheists' wish to be known for other more positive things than non- belief, which again, isn't really a thing. It is much more pleasant and constructive to be known for what you are and do, like philanthropy, kindness, wisdom, talent, intelligence, contributions to society, etc. In spite of propaganda to the contrary, being an atheist doesn't say anything about your personal standards or values, how you act, how you treat others, or how intelligent you are.
Re: Atheists do NOT worship themselves or anything else
Granted - and yet, do remember that we were all raised with the notion that moral/ethical behavior was inextricably tied to religious belief. I have even had people flat TELL me that if they didn't have a belief in God, then they would certainly rob, cheat, steal and worse, because the only thing stopping them - the ONLY thing - was their belief that their actions were being 'watched' and that there would be an inevitable consequence.
So how do you (anybody) hope - ever - to reassure people like that, when they are obviously going to firmly believe that anybody without a belief in God is, basically, a crime wave waiting to happen and a person totally without a shred of honesty about them, too?
They will not believe a word you say. They will not believe that, just because you behaved well yesterday, that you might behave well tomorrow.
Also - granted - such folks are (thankfully) a small minority of religious believers. But in a world of 7 billion, even a small minority is a large number of people.
Given that these people are out there, I believe that the only way to persuade them differently, is to give them enough examples from their own acquaintance to use 'experience' to teach, since 'doctrine' contradicts (for them) the idea that moral/ethical behavior can exist without the eye in the sky and punishment afterward.
They have those Russian novels to look at - you know 'without God, all is permitted' and also the example of Leopold and Loeb, who reasoned that without a god, it would be a neutral decision to murder a child, because they happened to be curious about what a dead person would look like.
So how do you (anybody) hope - ever - to reassure people like that, when they are obviously going to firmly believe that anybody without a belief in God is, basically, a crime wave waiting to happen and a person totally without a shred of honesty about them, too?
They will not believe a word you say. They will not believe that, just because you behaved well yesterday, that you might behave well tomorrow.
Also - granted - such folks are (thankfully) a small minority of religious believers. But in a world of 7 billion, even a small minority is a large number of people.
Given that these people are out there, I believe that the only way to persuade them differently, is to give them enough examples from their own acquaintance to use 'experience' to teach, since 'doctrine' contradicts (for them) the idea that moral/ethical behavior can exist without the eye in the sky and punishment afterward.
They have those Russian novels to look at - you know 'without God, all is permitted' and also the example of Leopold and Loeb, who reasoned that without a god, it would be a neutral decision to murder a child, because they happened to be curious about what a dead person would look like.
History is the fiction we invent to persuade ourselves that events are knowable and that life has order and direction. That's why events are always reinterpreted when values change. We need new versions of history to allow for our current prejudices.
Re: Atheists do NOT worship themselves or anything else
Yeah, that's why there is now an "openly secular " movement. But just like any other kind of revolutionary movement, the people on the front lines bear the brunt of the push back. Not many are willing to lose their jobs and families, though some do and have over the last few years, especially a bunch of ex preachers from the clergy project.
Added: I knew there was a reason I've hated Russian novels for years.
As for having no morality with no God, there is a presupposition that there is a god and that that that particular God gave people the understanding of morality. The atheist makes no such presupposition. There is not really an argument about the existence of moral codes in all societies. Most likely, the atheist presupposes that those moral codes came about by natural means. The specific mechanism is debatable. Most, however, would probably agree that morality benefits humanity to such an extent that it helps humans stay alive, pass on their genes and raise their offspring. Those moral codes that don't benefit humanity change or die out.
Added: I knew there was a reason I've hated Russian novels for years.
As for having no morality with no God, there is a presupposition that there is a god and that that that particular God gave people the understanding of morality. The atheist makes no such presupposition. There is not really an argument about the existence of moral codes in all societies. Most likely, the atheist presupposes that those moral codes came about by natural means. The specific mechanism is debatable. Most, however, would probably agree that morality benefits humanity to such an extent that it helps humans stay alive, pass on their genes and raise their offspring. Those moral codes that don't benefit humanity change or die out.