Introduction
Introduction
Hi - my name is Ryan. I have been hurt by a COC and am currently not attending anywhere. I attended Cornerstone COC in Thomasville Georgia for several years. My purpose for signing up to this site is to try and make sense of what happened to me while at that particular COC, and gain some understanding of the COC in general. I am so confused and hurt that I have stayed away from Church all together.
Re: Introduction
Glad you joined. Many here have been hurt deeply by the coc, the people on this board can definitely help you make sense of what happened to you. For starters, the bold claims made by the coc (founded ad 33, one true church, musical instruments, etc) are false. Tons of bad doctrine, which led me to leave. The people on this board will be more than happy to help you through your healing process. 
Re: Introduction
Thanks for the welcome.
To understand how I came to be lost and hurt, I will give a little background. Sorry if it's longwinded
I grew up catholic, but not what you call a strong follower (going some Sundays , Easter, Christmas)
While working in Atlanta in 1997, I met a girl at a bible study and we began dating. She was from the tiny town of Thomasville GA.
When we visited Thomasville, we would visit Cornerstone Church of Christ (CCOC). My girlfriend grew up in the COC but It was SO different for me...people clapping, raising hands, shouting. It was a tiny congregation. People were friendly enough. They had a very charismatic, intimidating preacher. He came from the ICOC movement (Crossroads in Gainesville, FL). The more we visited and listened to sermons and talked to people, I was amazed at how strict they were. The general theme was that all other churches are WRONG, and COC is the only way to salvation. No musical instruments, lots of rebuking, divorce is never an option, no heaven without full immersion baptism (no sprinkling, etc). I quickly felt inadequate. That really amplified when my girlfriend became pregnant. The preacher told the congregation NOT to come to our wedding or be involved. Most obeyed but a few showed up. We walked away from CCOC. We moved to Thomasville and attended various other Churches for a period of years
Several years later, CCOC suffered a huge split. The preacher was ousted for sexual indiscretions during his time in Gainsville. He was not supposed to be leading a church EVER. The church leadership knew, but they kept it secret for years. Eventually enough of the congregation found out that they were forced to oust him. Some loyalists to the preacher left, some stayed. The congregation was down to nothing. They hired a young new preacher and moved him to Thomasville. We were asked to visit. We did and started to go regularly. It was different, but same. They eased up a bit, but many of the teachings of the old preacher remained. We attended for 4 years. I became involved in bible studies, led a small group at my home (even though I never felt qualified). They told me they "loved me". I truly bought it all. They had the same attitude on baptism, but did change their tune on musical instruments. The church ran in to some tough financial times when they were busted by the IRS for withholding payroll tax but not remitting payroll taxes to them. The IRS levied a big fine and the church had to take a loan to pay it. The IRS offered to waive the penalty if the church gave up the person(s) that were responsible. They did not.
Over those 4 years we attended CCOC, my marriage began to deteriorate. We had big money problems, and were not effectively communicating. Some Church friends invited us over to watch Fireproof. At the time I didn't know why., but later found out that she was talking to people at church about our problems, but not to me. She had been telling people that I drink too much and don't help out enough around the house. I was rebuked (lectured) by the leadership. I felt so betrayed. To be fair, I did drink after work and on weekends, but was not a drunk. I worked, I was involved with my kids, I contributed to the chores. I confronted her and asked why she didn't talk to me about her issues. She denied the whole thing. Months passed and the leadership came to me and said "it is up to you to save this marriage...it's not fair but she is looking for you to save it and you are going to have to do it on your own"
I was stunned. Again, she denied saying that and got angry. I didn't pursue it.
Later on, another CCOC member came to my house and told me that if my wife and I can't get along we should split up and that the kids would be fine. I was stunned to hear this coming from a member of the church, especially since many sermons were given on the sanctity of marriage and how it is a covenant. I remember once a sermon by the new preacher BLASTING the TV show Modern Family and stressing the sanctity of marriage. They even had a movie night and showed Fireproof.
On 1/2/13, I arrived home after taking my two older kids to Tampa for a football game. The house was packed up. The kids were confused. So as not to start anything in front of them I went to bed and called her from work the next day. She said she is unhappy and didn't love me (or even like me). I begged her to reconsider, but people were there already helping her move.
She rented a house and took the kids and all our belongings. We could not pay two house rents, so I had to live in a hotel for a month. She said I was a good father so she would not stop me from seeing kids. I heard from NOBODY from the church until a few weeks later. A church member showed up while I was cleaning up our old house as the lease expired. He asked how I was doing. He said that the CHURCH helped my ex-wife move out behind my back. He said he didn't participate because he knew it was wrong. I called the preacher and told him off. His response was "we are helping her get her life back together". I said "what about my life, I don't want a divorce". He said "but, you drink".
My ex-wife still attends CCOC. I have not heard from them at all. I have been banished.
Sorry for the long-winded post, but now that my history has been told, I can start looking for answers.
What does COC REALLY believe? What do the scriptures really say??? Is it scriptural for the church to put saving the marriage all on the husband?
Is drinking a sin ? Was it right or wrong for the church to assist my wife in leaving me without warning?
Is drinking Biblical grounds for divorce? Why did these people who said they "loved me" drop me like a bad habit.
Why would a church member encourage us to split? There was no abuse at all. The reason my ex-wife gave to the children was that she didn't love me and was not happy
These are the questions that perplex me. This is why I stay away from church because I don't know what the truth is and don't know what I can believe.
To understand how I came to be lost and hurt, I will give a little background. Sorry if it's longwinded
I grew up catholic, but not what you call a strong follower (going some Sundays , Easter, Christmas)
While working in Atlanta in 1997, I met a girl at a bible study and we began dating. She was from the tiny town of Thomasville GA.
When we visited Thomasville, we would visit Cornerstone Church of Christ (CCOC). My girlfriend grew up in the COC but It was SO different for me...people clapping, raising hands, shouting. It was a tiny congregation. People were friendly enough. They had a very charismatic, intimidating preacher. He came from the ICOC movement (Crossroads in Gainesville, FL). The more we visited and listened to sermons and talked to people, I was amazed at how strict they were. The general theme was that all other churches are WRONG, and COC is the only way to salvation. No musical instruments, lots of rebuking, divorce is never an option, no heaven without full immersion baptism (no sprinkling, etc). I quickly felt inadequate. That really amplified when my girlfriend became pregnant. The preacher told the congregation NOT to come to our wedding or be involved. Most obeyed but a few showed up. We walked away from CCOC. We moved to Thomasville and attended various other Churches for a period of years
Several years later, CCOC suffered a huge split. The preacher was ousted for sexual indiscretions during his time in Gainsville. He was not supposed to be leading a church EVER. The church leadership knew, but they kept it secret for years. Eventually enough of the congregation found out that they were forced to oust him. Some loyalists to the preacher left, some stayed. The congregation was down to nothing. They hired a young new preacher and moved him to Thomasville. We were asked to visit. We did and started to go regularly. It was different, but same. They eased up a bit, but many of the teachings of the old preacher remained. We attended for 4 years. I became involved in bible studies, led a small group at my home (even though I never felt qualified). They told me they "loved me". I truly bought it all. They had the same attitude on baptism, but did change their tune on musical instruments. The church ran in to some tough financial times when they were busted by the IRS for withholding payroll tax but not remitting payroll taxes to them. The IRS levied a big fine and the church had to take a loan to pay it. The IRS offered to waive the penalty if the church gave up the person(s) that were responsible. They did not.
Over those 4 years we attended CCOC, my marriage began to deteriorate. We had big money problems, and were not effectively communicating. Some Church friends invited us over to watch Fireproof. At the time I didn't know why., but later found out that she was talking to people at church about our problems, but not to me. She had been telling people that I drink too much and don't help out enough around the house. I was rebuked (lectured) by the leadership. I felt so betrayed. To be fair, I did drink after work and on weekends, but was not a drunk. I worked, I was involved with my kids, I contributed to the chores. I confronted her and asked why she didn't talk to me about her issues. She denied the whole thing. Months passed and the leadership came to me and said "it is up to you to save this marriage...it's not fair but she is looking for you to save it and you are going to have to do it on your own"
I was stunned. Again, she denied saying that and got angry. I didn't pursue it.
Later on, another CCOC member came to my house and told me that if my wife and I can't get along we should split up and that the kids would be fine. I was stunned to hear this coming from a member of the church, especially since many sermons were given on the sanctity of marriage and how it is a covenant. I remember once a sermon by the new preacher BLASTING the TV show Modern Family and stressing the sanctity of marriage. They even had a movie night and showed Fireproof.
On 1/2/13, I arrived home after taking my two older kids to Tampa for a football game. The house was packed up. The kids were confused. So as not to start anything in front of them I went to bed and called her from work the next day. She said she is unhappy and didn't love me (or even like me). I begged her to reconsider, but people were there already helping her move.
She rented a house and took the kids and all our belongings. We could not pay two house rents, so I had to live in a hotel for a month. She said I was a good father so she would not stop me from seeing kids. I heard from NOBODY from the church until a few weeks later. A church member showed up while I was cleaning up our old house as the lease expired. He asked how I was doing. He said that the CHURCH helped my ex-wife move out behind my back. He said he didn't participate because he knew it was wrong. I called the preacher and told him off. His response was "we are helping her get her life back together". I said "what about my life, I don't want a divorce". He said "but, you drink".
My ex-wife still attends CCOC. I have not heard from them at all. I have been banished.
Sorry for the long-winded post, but now that my history has been told, I can start looking for answers.
What does COC REALLY believe? What do the scriptures really say??? Is it scriptural for the church to put saving the marriage all on the husband?
Is drinking a sin ? Was it right or wrong for the church to assist my wife in leaving me without warning?
Is drinking Biblical grounds for divorce? Why did these people who said they "loved me" drop me like a bad habit.
Why would a church member encourage us to split? There was no abuse at all. The reason my ex-wife gave to the children was that she didn't love me and was not happy
These are the questions that perplex me. This is why I stay away from church because I don't know what the truth is and don't know what I can believe.
Re: Introduction
welcome.
I do not know the personalities, or the hurt you suffered, or the dynamic of the group. But my guess is that that place was probably one of the nicer and livelier CofC places to try to attend...probably goes downhill from there...hate to discourage you, and hopefully I am wrong about everything I write below
So it sounds like you feel bad about not being with a church group and possibly about not being with a CofC group. Have you come to a point yet where you can see it is possible to leave the CofC without leaving God? Do you have family pressure to remain with a group with the title CofC?
My observations of Cornerstone after looking at website for 5 minutes....ignore as needed
I just spent some time reviewing the website of the CofC and it seems very odd...like a CofC trying to be a community church or something. They still push the 5 steps of salvation but have zilch on their site about "the issues"...nothing about giving, alcohol, "the dance", clothing, sexuality, or the popular MDR. They have a good bit of articles but nothing on any topic one would expect at run of the mill CofC. They have Hand Raising, Life Groups, and use the word Bishop instead of Elders...no reference to Deacons. And it is sounds like they have something akin to children's church....
If I were visiting around and had a CofC background and stumbled into that place, I would probably wonder if it is some sort of church plant from some mother ship someplace and the term CofC was accidental...but they do have baptism and the big fishing waders...so they must have CofC roots.
So I am guessing it is a touchy feely place that is overwhelmingly driven by the personality of the preacher man. And I am guessing like most CofC places, if one gets out of sorts or in some way is seen as a threat to the power circle/preacher that it becomes a rough ride. That is my guess.
Look forward to hearing more from you and your story.
I do not know the personalities, or the hurt you suffered, or the dynamic of the group. But my guess is that that place was probably one of the nicer and livelier CofC places to try to attend...probably goes downhill from there...hate to discourage you, and hopefully I am wrong about everything I write below
So it sounds like you feel bad about not being with a church group and possibly about not being with a CofC group. Have you come to a point yet where you can see it is possible to leave the CofC without leaving God? Do you have family pressure to remain with a group with the title CofC?
My observations of Cornerstone after looking at website for 5 minutes....ignore as needed
I just spent some time reviewing the website of the CofC and it seems very odd...like a CofC trying to be a community church or something. They still push the 5 steps of salvation but have zilch on their site about "the issues"...nothing about giving, alcohol, "the dance", clothing, sexuality, or the popular MDR. They have a good bit of articles but nothing on any topic one would expect at run of the mill CofC. They have Hand Raising, Life Groups, and use the word Bishop instead of Elders...no reference to Deacons. And it is sounds like they have something akin to children's church....
If I were visiting around and had a CofC background and stumbled into that place, I would probably wonder if it is some sort of church plant from some mother ship someplace and the term CofC was accidental...but they do have baptism and the big fishing waders...so they must have CofC roots.
So I am guessing it is a touchy feely place that is overwhelmingly driven by the personality of the preacher man. And I am guessing like most CofC places, if one gets out of sorts or in some way is seen as a threat to the power circle/preacher that it becomes a rough ride. That is my guess.Look forward to hearing more from you and your story.
Isn't the world wonderful...I am all for rational optimism and I am staying positive.
Re: Introduction
thanks! I do feel bad about not attending church at all. I want to get back in, but have a trust issue.
CCOC is very touch feely....but they never grow. The leadership was trained by the former preacher who was straight from ICOC (boston movement).
I want to find a place that will tell me the truth about the Bible
CCOC is very touch feely....but they never grow. The leadership was trained by the former preacher who was straight from ICOC (boston movement).
I want to find a place that will tell me the truth about the Bible
Re: Introduction
and oh yes, they love the big fishing waders....
Re: Introduction
I was word smithing the above post when you longer detail posting came in. I will just leave mine, it is probably mostly on target. Alcohol, MDR, church plant, and overwhelming preacher personality...though, that probably describes 90% of cofc places, so it is not much of an insight.
That places sounds closer to a cultish, ICOC type place than your run of the mill lame-o Cofc where no one does anything. Your wife sounds totally dependent on them for salvation (equates it to the one true church where she risks Hell if she is not faithful to the group) and so they are somewhat in control of her salvation and therefore her actions. She obviously is convinced that drinking is an abomination and terrible sin risking fires of Hell. She cannot cross or disagree or depart from the leadership or she risks her salvation and that of the children.
Alcohol does not trump marriage and at most CofCs you would lose a leadership position probably and not be allowed to publicly participate and sermons references to social drinking would be almost constant no matter the topic of the sermon. But social drinking would be condemned but the marriage would be supported. But I have seen in places with a huge Preacher ego that is out of whack that they will push the boundary on accepting a divorce "for cause" if it involves a member being even more dependent and committed to the group/leader.
The CofC idea of love is conditional and it all based on compliance and conformity to doctrine, you cannot differ from the one true church who is exactly the same as the first century NT church. Punishing someone also shows them to be pious and serves as warnings to others how serious this is and that they had better stay inline. But mainly it is about making sure they are always, always, always seen as the most pious and most righteous and most committed by pointing to others who have failed....and how hard it was on them to have to punish you because that is how they really show how much they love you.
You wife and former church are putting tremendous pressure on you. For the marriage and children it sounds like they are forcing a choice between drink and family/love. It makes you out the bad guy because you are in the grasp of the devil drink...but it is an unfair and false dichotomy. Seems like the only hope is to reduce your wife's emotional and salvation dependency on the group/preacher. Not sure how to do that but to me that seems like the issue. Sounds like she still thinks you are a good father and good man but she is convinced to think that she has to choose between you and fires of Hell for herself and children. You will not likely win if that is her only choice.
That places sounds closer to a cultish, ICOC type place than your run of the mill lame-o Cofc where no one does anything. Your wife sounds totally dependent on them for salvation (equates it to the one true church where she risks Hell if she is not faithful to the group) and so they are somewhat in control of her salvation and therefore her actions. She obviously is convinced that drinking is an abomination and terrible sin risking fires of Hell. She cannot cross or disagree or depart from the leadership or she risks her salvation and that of the children.
Alcohol does not trump marriage and at most CofCs you would lose a leadership position probably and not be allowed to publicly participate and sermons references to social drinking would be almost constant no matter the topic of the sermon. But social drinking would be condemned but the marriage would be supported. But I have seen in places with a huge Preacher ego that is out of whack that they will push the boundary on accepting a divorce "for cause" if it involves a member being even more dependent and committed to the group/leader.
The CofC idea of love is conditional and it all based on compliance and conformity to doctrine, you cannot differ from the one true church who is exactly the same as the first century NT church. Punishing someone also shows them to be pious and serves as warnings to others how serious this is and that they had better stay inline. But mainly it is about making sure they are always, always, always seen as the most pious and most righteous and most committed by pointing to others who have failed....and how hard it was on them to have to punish you because that is how they really show how much they love you.
You wife and former church are putting tremendous pressure on you. For the marriage and children it sounds like they are forcing a choice between drink and family/love. It makes you out the bad guy because you are in the grasp of the devil drink...but it is an unfair and false dichotomy. Seems like the only hope is to reduce your wife's emotional and salvation dependency on the group/preacher. Not sure how to do that but to me that seems like the issue. Sounds like she still thinks you are a good father and good man but she is convinced to think that she has to choose between you and fires of Hell for herself and children. You will not likely win if that is her only choice.
Isn't the world wonderful...I am all for rational optimism and I am staying positive.
Re: Introduction
Well there are supposedly about 2 dozen types of CofC...but mainly there are just a few main branches.jryan17 wrote:thanks! I do feel bad about not attending church at all. I want to get back in, but have a trust issue.
CCOC is very touch feely....but they never grow. The leadership was trained by the former preacher who was straight from ICOC (boston movement).
I want to find a place that will tell me the truth about the Bible
The problem with the "truth about the Bible" is that there are various aspects in play.
The Gospel and facts about Jesus' life and basic salvation by God are fairly straightforward.
But then there is all this other "stuff" that has grown up over the centuries. faith/works, end times, exact point of salvation, "worship service", building/property usage, standing treasury/budgets, collections, hermeneutics, CENI, confession and prayer styles, etc.
The CofC perspective is:
1. The Old Testament was detailed driven with exacting details by God
2. God is always the same and never changes
3. New covenant must also be detail driven since God never changes
4. It is critical to understand the new plan down to exact detail in order to have a chance of being pleasing to God
5. God would be unjust if he did not reveal the detailed plan
6. Therefore the plan must be hidden and included in the letters of the New Testament or else God would not be Just
7. Therefore it is critical to have a hermeneutic that can reliably and safely reveal the detailed blueprint of God
It is this notion that the NT contains an exact blueprint on how to worship and be pleasing to God that drives so much of the CofC thinking. Because unless you follow the same exact hermeneutic you will arrive at a different conclusion. And since God cannot be the author of confusion the other conclusion must be heresy. The doctrine and hermeneutic become overwhelming in authority. Because one then claims that they are just speaking was God has spoken even though the text never says what they are saying.
So when you say you want a place that will tell you the truth about the Bible then that is sort of a problem because everyplace has their own hermeneutic and the resulting doctrines derived from that hermeneutic. And they all think and claim it is "the truth" and it is always a difference on how to do church, the power structure, and/or the end times. Differing on Jesus or His story of forgiveness is not usually the area of splits, it is these other things around the central truth, these other things that have piled up as I say. These are the things we divide over, not Jesus.
Isn't the world wonderful...I am all for rational optimism and I am staying positive.
Re: Introduction
Welcome Jryan!! You are in good company here.......glad to have you!!
KLP is a very good person to give you the cofc scoop. I will say that your "Cornerstone" group sounds
very different from the cofcs many of us attended. But sounds like the same toxic stuff is mixed in with the
hand lifting, clapping, and shouting.
KLP is a very good person to give you the cofc scoop. I will say that your "Cornerstone" group sounds
very different from the cofcs many of us attended. But sounds like the same toxic stuff is mixed in with the
hand lifting, clapping, and shouting.
~Stone Cold Ivyrose Austin~
Re: Introduction
I would recommend maybe the M Scott Peck book about "People of the Lie"...at least the first half of it. It might give you some insight into how these churches work and why/how the leadership has to lie and cover up and the overwhelming need to be seen as the most pious and righteous people in the congregation. The leadership feels they must maintain this self-image and perception at all cost, even lying and covering up stuff, even being extremely mean and hurtful to make problems go away or be seen as a problem of some bad member...they must always be presented as righteous in order to be legitimate (in their mind). This dynamic drives so much "junk" and when you finally get your head around accepting that the leadership can actually be liars it makes everything start to make sense. It was very hard for me to accept the elders and preacher were liars...nothing made sense and I was always confused and off balance...but when I realized they were liars then everything started to make sense. Before I was always trying to figure out what was wrong with me or with other members...when really it was the leadership that was dishonest...but of course always for the cause of Christ. blech
I really hope you can be reconciled to your wife...that is terrible what they have done and then to still claim they are holy and you need to repent. sick sick stuff.
I really hope you can be reconciled to your wife...that is terrible what they have done and then to still claim they are holy and you need to repent. sick sick stuff.
Isn't the world wonderful...I am all for rational optimism and I am staying positive.