What frustrates me...

[Letmethink]

I was a very dedicated, faithful Christian in the conservative, non-institutional church of Christ until my mid 30s.

Three times a week, active in teaching, preaching, leading prayers, and so forth.

In my mid 30s, my faith was fully deconstructed after I starting looking into big questions, like "Is the Bible really the word of God."

Having been raised to always "seek the truth," this is a cornerstone value of mine that has stuck with me since childhood. Of course now I don't feel like "the truth" lies within the pages of the Bible.

Which leads me to my frustration. My family of origin is still deeply convicted in the coc way of life. I understand, I was there. But now some of their children (as in my nieces/nephews) haven't accepted the coc, and my family now sees both the children, and their own parenting as a failure, because the (now adult children) haven't "accepted the truth."

And these are good kids. But they get hell from their parents for not continuing in the thrice weekly hardline coc system of belief. I also have a growing suspicion that the ones that have "remained faithful" have only done so out of fear.

People (Christians) often ask why atheists care what Christians believe, and why they wish to dismantle Christianity.

I can't speak for everyone, but I see the ongoing hurt and pain that is caused by withholding love and kindness from people who legitimately and sincerely believe that Christianity is nothing more than a human myth. It is "good Christians" actively interested in causing harm to the lives of other people, even including their own children. And I suppose I am heartbroken, if not also a bit angered, by all of it. I'm tired of hearing the accusation that these kids have nothing but evil motives, when in reality they really just don't find the Christian story any more compelling than any other number of religious stories.

Maybe just a bit of a morning rant, but I wanted to get it off my chest.

[FinallyFree]

This is a good post. I am sure my family thinks my kids are terrible because they have all abandoned church, but I don't care anymore. The CoC was a nightmare for us. I wish I could have raised them in the church I am in now.
It is sad to take away the ability for people to find their own path. Everyone is not the same, and the same thing is not going to resonate with everyone.

[Cootie Brown]

Letmethink, you expressed the beliefs and feelings accurately that many of us have that have left religion. There is a growing number of atheists that believe the religious indoctrination of children (fear of God, hell, and punishment) is akin to child abuse. I used to think that was going a little too far, but religious indoctrination does trouble me and it begins when they are still babies.

I'd be less concerned if Christianity and the bible was taught in the context of religious myths but if that happened I believe it would be the death knell for Christianity and I think Christians know that. In spite of comments by some believers on this site I'm convinced the vast number of believers, even in liberal versions of Christianity, still believe the bible is in some way true and that hell is a real place. I acknowledge the social component of religion is one of their strongest assets, but so is the fear of hell. I firmly believe most people remain in their religion out of fear they will be tortured eternally in hell if they leave their faith. I think they fear hell much more than they love Jesus and God.

Even over at Ex Christian.net comments from those leaving their faith confirm they still believe some parts of the Bible are true and that hell is real. They often confess they believe they are destined for hell for leaving their faith. They have to be de-programmed as would be required for anyone leaving any cult. And that essentially means they have to be re-educated.

The negative aspects of religion are exceeding evil and are dependent on the intense indoctrination of their adherents. And the main component of that indoctrination is fear.

[gordie91]

It is "good Christians" actively interested in causing harm to the lives of other people, even including their own children. And I suppose I am heartbroken, if not also a bit angered, by all of it. I'm tired of hearing the accusation that these kids have nothing but evil motives, when in reality they really just don't find the Christian story any more compelling than any other number of religious stories.

This statement really stood out and has really baffled me of late as I witness behaviors and comments from my family and acquaintances. I, in leaving the CoC, did not leave God and the basic teachings of Christianity. I had for a long time witnessed numerous contradictions in CoC teaching, practices and the history I was told to believe. (At one point during my studies I concluded to trash it all and just be a good person.)

In the past when talking about the contradictions or talking about history, I was told well just go be a Catholic! I couldn't do that because I had already decided to not be one but when I decided to be Orthodox that is when the negative things started to happen. The side comments and avoidance by some people is astonishing to me. I don't hate them but yet since learning about my switch these people act so differently now. Thankfully I am sure of myself and do not derive self worth in how well I am accepted by religious fundamentalists and I believe my gradual drift shielded me somewhat from traumatic experiences. Nevertheless, it still has an effect on my life just not traumatic.

I have been accused of being disillusioned with a particular preacher and church, which effected my decision. Some have said that they wished we had not been at his church and maybe we would not have been inclined to leave if we had gone somewhere else. This is a form of evasion on their part and a failure to realize that leaving in my forties and living where I have lived over the years would also have an effect on me not just some 10 year run at a small church headed by intellectually stunted preacher.

These folk ask my family, that are still "faithful", questions about me and my wife never bothering to contact us and when we happen to run into them they go stone cold and become business like whereas before were very friendly. My young son's contact with cousins has dwindled to the "have to" get togethers because the church kids are a more suitable association. He even asked the other day why we worship idols! There is not a statue one in our church and lots of specific teaching about the use of icons, yet someone has brought it up with a 9 year old that we worship idols. That is not ignorant, that is mean.

The rigidity of their doctrines and practices produce that cold hearted reaction and manipulation, of which I witnessed while in their group, and I didn't like it then and tried to avoid engaging in their comments or condoning their stupid notions about other people's lives and motives. The denominational slogan they had about unity, love and diversity was junk when the rubber hit the road. Humiliation, shunning and gossiping was the soupe du jour if someone strayed even a little bit from the narrow path.

I guess I am frustrated too!

[faithfyl]

People (Christians) often ask why atheists care what Christians believe, and why they wish to dismantle Christianity.

I can't speak for everyone, but I see the ongoing hurt and pain that is caused by withholding love and kindness from people who legitimately and sincerely believe that Christianity is nothing more than a human myth. It is "good Christians" actively interested in causing harm to the lives of other people, even including their own children. And I suppose I am heartbroken, if not also a bit angered, by all of it. I'm tired of hearing the accusation that these kids have nothing but evil motives, when in reality they really just don't find the Christian story any more compelling than any other number of religious stories. .

They will also show ongoing hurt and pain for people who believe in Christianity, but don't attend services 3 times per week on a regular basis. Or don't adhere to some other strict rule. Although sure, they see atheists as being more "lost". In what ways do they think these people are dismantling Christianity?

[ena]

In my mid 30s, my faith was fully deconstructed after I starting looking into big questions, like "Is the Bible really the word of God."

Having been raised to always "seek the truth," this is a cornerstone value of mine that has stuck with me since childhood. Of course now I don't feel like "the truth" lies within the pages of the Bible.

It is important to look at the Bible for what it is. God did not write it. Humans wrote it. As Bart Ehrmann puts it, "It has human fingerprints all over it." He is right. Yet, the Bible is the most influential book in western culture. Many derive comfort from its pages because if you read entire books in the New Testament you will get what the author is talking about. If you take only verses for proof texts you miss that. Also it is not without error. The gospels were written late. It is possible that Paul never read one. He did not know Jesus in the flesh but claimed to have met him in the spirit. That may be. It turns out that Paul called himself Apostle to the Gentiles. He died under Nero by beheading according to John Foxe. Nero died in 68 CE. Foxes Book of Martyrs details the deaths of the Apostles in Chapter one. Remember that Paul claimed to be a Roman citizen. Roman citizens were beheaded not crucified.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/martyrs/fox101.htm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nero

[Cootie Brown]

Whether it's American, State, Civil War, or other history, tradition is generally what people know & believe is true. When actual historical records are checked tradition is proven to be wrong more often than not. Like Betsy Ross didn't design the American flag even though that is the traditional belief.

When it comes to the Bible & religion tradition is virtually the only thing the average believer knows, but they are convinced it's historically correct. The things you just posted about Paul is tradition not history. That is why Jesus & Paul are a problem for real historians, neither of them left a historical footprint. What people think they know about both of them is based on tradition not history, but that doesn't matter to a believer.

Going back to letmethink's post. Like LMT I was a deeply devoted Christian for 47 years. Now I have the perspective of having been both a committed believer & a non-believer. That perspective changes everything. A believer cannot really know or understand the mind of a non-believer until they become one.

And I will add that an apologist is definitely not a historian, but believers don't seem to appreciate the significance difference between those two scholarships.

[Cootie Brown]

I will also add that truth mattered to me, as letmethink noted in his post, so when I discovered the Bible isn't true in any literal or historic sense my faith evaporated. I admit I have been more than a little surprised to discovered how many believers are not bothered in the least that the Bible isn't true literally or historically. I still can't wrap my head around that.