Early Christianity

[Turtle]

They say there were gnostic texts circulating in the first century. For the sake of argument how do they know that some of those texts do not record some of Jesus's teachings?

Technically speaking there is no way to know whether or not any of the teachings ascribed to him actually were his or not. Gnostic texts very well could have some of his teachings in them. However, Jesus didn't write any document himself, his words were not recorded til decades after he supposedly said them, and not by eyewitnesses. Plus, not one single original document exists, as far as we know, they are all copies or copies of copies. So, at best, we have third or fourth hand accounts.

[.918]

In speaking about the Apostleship of Paul, I brought the point up in bible class once that Paul probably wasn't at the crucifixion. Therefore he could't have met the "qualifications". I was told and heard it repeated in several sermons after that, that being in opposition to the church and that fact that he was present and giving consent to the stoning of Stephan, he could have been present as one of the Pharisees. And that he was familiar with what they were teaching. Can't have an Apostle that doesn't fit the qualifications. So he had to have been there even if he wasn't on the right side. I didn't agree with this, but it stirred a bit of dust for a while.
I believe that he was an apostle because God can appoint whoever He wants to. And it is possible to even have them today. Although I have met some who claim to be apostles but I have difficulty believing that they are. They like the pomp and circumstance and we know that Peter and the other apostles didn't seem to want that.
But this is simply my opinion.

[ena]

They say there were gnostic texts circulating in the first century. For the sake of argument how do they know that some of those texts do not record some of Jesus's teachings?

Bart Ehrman addresses this in Lost Christianities. Many of the texts recently found are of gnostic origin. He is there on the Christian archeology scene. He teaches at Chapel Hill, North Carolina. He is very good at Greek and has read extensively. His knowledge goes far beyond almost anyone. Netflix had a presentation on the Gospel of Judas. It is written Coptic. Which is an Egyptian language. Bart shows up there. The book is papyrus. It has been kept out of sight for many years. The reasons are mainly monetary.

[Lev]

In speaking about the Apostleship of Paul, I brought the point up in bible class once that Paul probably wasn't at the crucifixion. Therefore he could't have met the "qualifications". I was told and heard it repeated in several sermons after that, that being in opposition to the church and that fact that he was present and giving consent to the stoning of Stephan, he could have been present as one of the Pharisees. And that he was familiar with what they were teaching. Can't have an Apostle that doesn't fit the qualifications. So he had to have been there even if he wasn't on the right side. I didn't agree with this, but it stirred a bit of dust for a while.

Does the Bible actually list the 'qualifications' of the Apostles? I know when they were trying to replace Judas they wanted to choose among men who had been "with us the whole time" (Acts 1:21-22) but that just seems like common sense: you're part of an underground movement whose leader just got executed; you're not going to associate with someone you don't trust. It's clear that Paul's apostleship was not universally accepted, as evidenced by his constant letter intros that go something like: I'm Paul, a real apostle, no joke--I'm an apostle (my paraphrase).

Regarding your "stirred the dust" comment... wasn't this exactly what COC Bible class teachers were hoping would NOT happen? An actual, frank discussion that challenged the party line. Whenever I brought up something that "stirred the dust" I usually regretted it.

Lev

[B.H.]

If God can raise up children of Abraham from rocks like Jesus said he can raise up apostles from square note using songbooks too. And don't any of you forget it either!

[ena]

First I like to talk about what I call the Jewish Commission. It is found in Matt 10:5.

5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel Matt 10:5-6 (KJV)

Notice that the twelve were sent to the Twelve Tribes of Israel and not to the gentiles. I am sure you have heard much spin for the Great Commission but this is the backdrop for the trouble Paul had with Peter over eating with Jews while ignoring gentiles. In fact if not for the work of Paul, Christianity might have relegated to the dust bin of history. I note that Sadducees are no longer. They vanished after the fall of the second temple and are in the dust bin of History. It is something to bear in mind when discussing Paul.

[ena]

In speaking about the Apostleship of Paul, I brought the point up in bible class once that Paul probably wasn't at the crucifixion. Therefore he could't have met the "qualifications".

Technically he did not meet the qualifications for Apostle. This was a sore spot for Paul. His writings are among the earliest in Christianity. Among the 13 works by Paul 6 are disputed by not being by him. These reasons are Greek reasons. Far beyond the standard CoC preacher. Bart Erhman descibes that the pastorials which are 1 & 2 Tmothy and Titus contain over 200 Greek words not used by Paul in any other work ascribed to him. He admits that it is possible that he used a different vocabulary but the works smell of a second century work while Paul died before 70 AD by being beheaded under Nero. If you think Hitler was a jerk, Nero was a real sadist. Outside of Luke in acts. the only place Paul is mentioned by another is 2 Peter 3:15.

15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 2 Peter 3:15 (KJV)

Note that he is not called my fellow Apostle. Do read the context or whole work because in the past God has raised up others to do his bidding. The book of Jonah is an actual comedy if you read it with understanding. Jonah wanted Ninivah to be destoyed and goes into a deep sulk afterwards. I think that's why God keeps humans around.

[ena]

So what happened to the Apostles. There are writings by the early church fathers that cover this. What is neat about this is not their death but that they went about the known world and taught about what they had seen or witnessed. Foxes book of martyrs details this it was written by a former Catholic turned protestant during the reformation. It colors his writing.

1. Simon, Peter crucified in Rome up side down because he felt unworthy to die like Jesus.
2. Andrew Peter's brother taught in Asiatic nations He was crucified in Edessa on cross in the shape of an "X".
3. James Son of Zebedee beheaded 44 AD
4. John brother of James The churches of Smyrna, Pergamos, Sardis, Philadelphia, Laodicea, and Thyatira, were founded by him. From Ephesus he was sent to Rome and is said to be cast into a cauldron of boiling oil. He escaped by miracle, without injury. Banished to the Island of Patmos. where he wrote the Book of Revelation. Theologians called this John the John of Patmos.
5. Philip worked in upper Asia scourged and crucified 54 AD in Heliopolis, in Phrygia.
6. Bartholomew preaches in many countries including India. He was beaten and then crucified by idolaters.
7. Matthew labored in Parthia, and Ethiopia being slain with a. halberd in the city of Nadabah, AD 60.
8. Thomas preached the Gospel in Parthia and India, was martyred by being thrust through with a spear.
9. James the less had his brains bashed out with a fullers club at 94 years.
10. Simon the Canaanite preached the Gospel in Mauritania Africa, and even in Britain in which latter country he was crucified, AD 74.
11. Thaddaeus or Jude was crucified at Edessa, AD 72.
12. Judas eithed hung himself and/or burst ansunder. This descrepancy is a field day for appologists.

13. Matthias was elected to fill the place of Judas. He was stoned at Jerusalem and then beheaded.

[ena]

They say there were gnostic texts circulating in the first century. For the sake of argument how do they know that some of those texts do not record some of Jesus's teachings?

They don't know! Many are late works as in 2nd Century. The apostles were dead before these books by them were written. Even the King James Bible had to be revised because older and better manuscripts were found. I heard this on a TV show about the King James. You didn't hear this from the CoC. Look up King James Revised. You will get numerous hits. There is a whole world of Bible archeology You will not get it in the CoC because their foundation is so shaky. The apocrypha have been translated into English. You can read them on line.

[Lev]

The apocrypha have been translated into English. You can read them on line.

You can also read them in the Catholic and Anglican Bibles, where they've been accepted as valuable, if not on par with the rest of scripture, for centuries.

Lev