Alcohol

[Scott]

This whole discussion reminds me of a documentary called How Beer Saved the World.
I am sure that there is some truth to it but it is hilarious how they show that just about all Human accomplishments such as agriculture, medicine, landing on the moon etc all would not have happened if it wasn't for beer.

[illuminator]

Anything can be abused. Fire is wonderful -- heats our homes, cooks our food -- but if I burn your house down, I've abused it. There's a difference that the church of christ cannot and refuses to see because it would be forfeiting their superiority complex over everyone.

[MusicMan826]

When I was a kid I remember being at a restaurant and seeing people drinking a beer or glass of wine and think that they wer going to hell. I also remember watching TV and seeing a character drinking a beer or glass of wine and think the same thing. To them even a sip of beer was enough to send you to an eternity of hell. And looking back I think it's really screwed up how the church brainwashed me at such a young age to constantly judge others I didn't even know and think about how they would go to hell.

[bnot]

I remember a Bible lesson that stressed that the word wine in the Bible had two Greek versions. One for grape juice and one for fermented wine. I just took their word for it but this was the reason behind you shouldn't drink alcohol at all. I remember talk about cooking with alcohol and that non alcoholic beer has some alcohol in it also so it was a no no. From what I remember as a child the Catholics use fermented wine on Sundays. I think the Jews use fermented wine also. Just curious how valid the grape juice teachings are. Is it wrong for me to drink a few beers tomorrow watching the Super Bowl? Can I place a bet?

Another text book case of Church of Christ scripture twisting. No it's not wrong for you to drink a few beers. No it's not wrong for you to place a bet. The bible only speaks of drunkenness being wrong. Jesus was called a wine bibber. Matt 11:18-19 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, ‘He has a demon.’ 19 The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners.’ But wisdom is proved right by her deeds.” They said he was a wine bibber because it was real wine, not welch's grape juice. If all the wine of the bible is non alcoholic, then why aren't we guilty of drinking water? It's non-alcoholic? We're all water bibbers! This is what the coc want's everyone to believe:
Church of Christ est. AD 33
Welch's grape juice est. AD 33

[Turtle]

There is an incredibly elaborate treatise somewhere on the net about how it is quite possible, maybe even probable, that the " fruit of the vine" mentioned in the New Testament was all non-alcoholic. I've seen people literally turn purple with rage at the suggestion that Jesus may have drunk wine. The arguments are so ridiculously complex that I say hogwash. I can't imagine 1 st century peasants spending that much time worrying about the alcohol content of their beverages. Grape juice can begin to ferment within 24 hours.

Besides, alcohol content increases naturally with age and evaporation. I also read somewhere that in the winter, water content freezes quicker than alcohol, and removing the chunks of ice also naturally increases the percentage of alcohol.

[Lev]

This whole discussion reminds me of a documentary called How Beer Saved the World.
I am sure that there is some truth to it but it is hilarious how they show that just about all Human accomplishments such as agriculture, medicine, landing on the moon etc all would not have happened if it wasn't for beer.

Ha! That sounds great. I read somewhere that one hypothesis about how bread was invented is that it was an accidental byproduct of beer-brewing in ancient Egypt. Note to self: watch "How Beer Saved the World" at first opportunity.

It's available free online - http://vimeo.com/23278902

Lev

[Lev]

When I was a kid I remember being at a restaurant and seeing people drinking a beer or glass of wine and think that they wer going to hell. I also remember watching TV and seeing a character drinking a beer or glass of wine and think the same thing. To them even a sip of beer was enough to send you to an eternity of hell. And looking back I think it's really screwed up how the church brainwashed me at such a young age to constantly judge others I didn't even know and think about how they would go to hell.

I was invited out to dinner with a friend when I was a little kid, maybe 8 or 9 years old. His parents weren't COC and his dad had a beer with dinner. Of course I thought that he was going to hell. Then, after dinner when my friend's dad got behind the wheel of their car and proceeded to drive us home after consuming a beer, I was absolutely certain that we were all going to die. One beer = hell and death.

Lev

[Aces]

Dear Friends,

Booze is good in every form. (Maybe not sake, LOL). Don't care what the coc ( or the bible) says about anything.

[FCOCER]

The traditional CofC teaching about Biblical lands grape juice being unfermented is deeply absurd, and deeply colored by Prohibition-era sentiments. I've heard more than one silly joker talk about Jesus turning the water into strictly unfermented grape juice because Jesus would never create something that made people drunk - all this delivered while contextually referring to a story wherein people were getting elevated on wine during a wedding feast! If Jesus was so opposed to wine at all, why would he have "diminished his witness" and "made others stumble" by being present at the sort of party where it was well-known that wine would be drunk and enjoyed? I've also heard a couple of people state that if Jesus had turned the water into alcoholic wine that it would have clearly refuted his divinity.

The entire context of the wedding feast at Cana indicates that wine was being drunk, and that enjoying wine was a part of the feasting culture. If Jesus had indeed delivered the master of the feast a bunch of pots of fresh grape juice, why would the reader not think the plain juice would have been noted as such by the master, instead of the beverage being praised as a fine vintage wine?

For entertainment purposes - "when the master of the feast tasted the water that was made Welches pasteurized grape juice, and did not know where it came from... He said to him "every man at the beginning sets out the good Welches pasteurized grape juice and when the guests have well drunk, then the Welches pasteurized grape juice which is inferior, but you have kept the good Welches pasteurized grape juice until now."" JOH 2:9-10
Bunch of crazies!

[ena]

The traditional CofC teaching about Biblical lands grape juice being unfermented is deeply absurd, and deeply colored by Prohibition-era sentiments. I've heard more than one silly joker talk about Jesus turning the water into strictly unfermented grape juice because Jesus would never create something that made people drunk - all this delivered while contextually referring to a story wherein people were getting elevated on wine during a wedding feast! If Jesus was so opposed to wine at all, why would he have "diminished his witness" and "made others stumble" by being present at the sort of party where it was well-known that wine would be drunk and enjoyed? I've also heard a couple of people state that if Jesus had turned the water into alcoholic wine that it would have clearly refuted his divinity.

The entire context of the wedding feast at Cana indicates that wine was being drunk, and that enjoying wine was a part of the feasting culture. If Jesus had indeed delivered the master of the feast a bunch of pots of fresh grape juice, why would the reader not think the plain juice would have been noted as such by the master, instead of the beverage being praised as a fine vintage wine?

Prohibition era sentiments is correct. Without Pasteurization and refrigeration fermentation is king. The old wineskins bursting argument comes from rapid fermentation cause by co2 generation by yeast in the old wineskins. I can prove it by making sugar water and dumping in bakers yeast and inverting a glass vessel like a test tube full of the mixture. In a few hours you will get a test tube full of this gas. By sticking in a burning match the flame will go out because CO2 will not supply oxygen to the fire. High C02 levels are deadly to humans even in the presence of oxygen. This is the subject of Apollo 13 as they had to adapt a scrubber from the LEM. Grape juice would not be fine wine.

NASB Mark 2.22
"No one puts new wine into old wineskins; otherwise the wine will burst the skins, and the wine is lost and the skins as well; but one puts new wine into fresh wineskins."