Ex-Church of Christ Support Board

I disagreed on the COC’s teachings on evolution. I studied enough biology to understand the scientific evidence for evolution. I kept my mouth shut about this topic for many years. And Moogy does not often keep her mouth shut on any topic.

Moogy wrote:I disagreed on the COC’s teachings on evolution. I studied enough biology to understand the scientific evidence for evolution. I kept my mouth shut about this topic for many years. And Moogy does not often keep her mouth shut on any topic.

Moog, do you remember when I determined I couldn't teach the OT stories to the little kids class any more (i.e. Noah's Ark, etc.)?

My boys used to be chastised for speaking up about evolution in their Sunday School classes. This was post church of christ; I think it was an Independent Christian church. I told them to use their wisdom in knowing when to lay low and when to say something.

When I was 15 or so, some coc 'expert' came in to teach a voluntary (ahem) week long seminar on how evolution was false.

When I was younger, I don't remember the topic coming up very often. 'Everybody knew' that dinosaur bones were put there by Satan to confuse us, or maybe put there by God to test us (opinions were divided, in other words). The possibility that they were exactly as they appeared to be (evidence of past life forms of great age) simply never got any air time, so to speak.

I rather think my father was more or less an 'old earth creationist' and didn't see dinosaurs as any sort of problem in the first place, but he kept his mouth shut about it - like Moogy.

The old internet infidels board actually had many scientists posting on it that used to rip creationist arguments to threads. How many arguments in defense of your position have to be refuted before itv sinks in maybe your position iswrong?

As one explained to me the same laws of chemistry used to make your house hold cleaners are the same laws of chemistry used to give dates to rocks and fossils.

Religion is about believing that there is a supernatural realm where the earthly laws of science and physics do not apply. This realm is occupied by supernatural beings that are also not subject to the earthly laws of science & physics.

This supernatural realm can and does interact with the earthly realm, and that makes anything and everything possible in the earthly realm. And that makes science and religion incompatible because supernatural entities are not limited or even subject to the earthly laws of science and physics.

That is why faith is required in order to believe in religious teachings, doctrines, and traditions. Since it is acknowledged this supernatural realm is invisible and undetectable it takes faith to believe in its existence. And thus it is impossible for the earthly laws of science and physics to “prove” that this supernatural realm and its occupants do not exist.

Additionally, it also requires faith to believe illiterate people, that lived thousands of years ago in ancient cultures, had personal contact and conversations with entities from the this supernatural realm. These entities gave these ancient earthlings specific instructions to preserve and pass on to future cultures.

It is assumed these illiterate humans had supernatural help in their ability to memorize these messages, or these supernatural entities supernaturally gave illiterate people the ability to read and write so they could write and preserve the information they were given. So, these instructions and messages were preserved and passed on to future generations along with stern warnings that failure to abide by these commands and laws would result in eternal punishment by being burned alive forever.

Unfortunately, none of these original documents have survived, so believers are left to accept these ancient writing actually did exists and were given to mankind by supernatural beings. Again, believing this requires faith because there is no evidence any of it is true.

Apparently these supernatural beings place an extremely high value on faith, whereas people today place a high value on evidence and science. That, obviously, puts religion and science in conflict with each other in today’s culture.

Cootie Brown wrote:Additionally, it also requires faith to believe illiterate people, that lived thousands of years ago in ancient cultures, had personal contact and conversations with entities from the this supernatural realm.

Cootie, you might want to read up on ancient use of psychoactive plants in religious ceremonies. I can guarantee you they had contact with a non-ordinary reality. Who are we to say the people of bible lore didn't have access to some types of hallucinogenic plants in the desert? We also know that ancient Christian mystics reached meditative states where they experienced an alternate reality, apparently without the use of psychoactive plants.

I'm just saying it's not that far fetched to believe that ancient people had contact / conversations with another dimension.

Ivy wrote:

Cootie Brown wrote:Additionally, it also requires faith to believe illiterate people, that lived thousands of years ago in ancient cultures, had personal contact and conversations with entities from the this supernatural realm.

Cootie, you might want to read up on ancient use of psychoactive plants in religious ceremonies. I can guarantee you they had contact with a non-ordinary reality. Who are we to say the people of bible lore didn't have access to some types of hallucinogenic plants in the desert? We also know that ancient Christian mystics reached meditative states where they experienced an alternate reality, apparently without the use of psychoactive plants.

I'm just saying it's not that far fetched to believe that ancient people had contact / conversations with another dimension.

I personally don’t accept the premise that drug induced hallucinations is confirmation that other dimensions and supernatural beings exist. I acknowledge such experiences are mind altering and would likely convince those that experience drug induced hallucinations that they were experiencing another reality.

It seems to me that what your are saying is that a supernatural realm and supernatural beings do exists, but they are only accessible by altering the mind with hallucinogenic drugs. If so, then that is what atheists generally believe too, that God and the supernatural realm only exists in the minds of believers.

You have unintentionally confirmed what millions of atheists already believe ....but I realize that isn’t what you meant, ar least I don’t think that is what you meant.

Cootie Brown wrote:

Ivy wrote:

Cootie Brown wrote:Additionally, it also requires faith to believe illiterate people, that lived thousands of years ago in ancient cultures, had personal contact and conversations with entities from the this supernatural realm.

Cootie, you might want to read up on ancient use of psychoactive plants in religious ceremonies. I can guarantee you they had contact with a non-ordinary reality. Who are we to say the people of bible lore didn't have access to some types of hallucinogenic plants in the desert? We also know that ancient Christian mystics reached meditative states where they experienced an alternate reality, apparently without the use of psychoactive plants.

I'm just saying it's not that far fetched to believe that ancient people had contact / conversations with another dimension.

I personally don’t accept the premise that drug induced hallucinations is confirmation that other dimensions and supernatural beings exist. I acknowledge such experiences are mind altering and would likely convince those that experience drug induced hallucinations that they were experiencing another reality.

It seems to me that what your are saying is that a supernatural realm and supernatural beings do exists, but they are only accessible by altering the mind with hallucinogenic drugs. If so, then that is what atheists generally believe too, that God and the supernatural realm only exists in the minds of believers.

You have unintentionally confirmed what millions of atheists already believe ....but I realize that isn’t what you meant, ar least I don’t think that is what you meant.

Whatever you think I meant, I do want to admonish you to not try these techniques at home unless Sister Ivy can be there as a "guide" to ensure your safety.

No, you are only partially correct. I do believe that alternate dimensions exist beyond our usual perceptions. I do not believe that they exist only in the individual mind. I believe our minds / brains organize and filter our perceptions so that we are not continually distracted from daily life and survival. You will note that aboriginal people reserve use of these plants for sacred ceremonies; they don't take them for recreation or daily use. They have other things to do that require them to live within the shared day to day "reality" of their communities.

Also, be aware that meditation can cause the "shared reality" shaping filter to dissipate for a time. Plants are not required.

Ivy, I’ve heard the theory of other dimensions as being similar to radio waves. Radio waves exist in abundance, but unless a person has a radio engineered to pick up those waves and produce sound no one knows those waves exist.

In theory, other dimensions exists but our brains are not capable of processing their existence. Since that theory has some possibility of being scientifically true, I can accept it as “possible, but as yet unproven.”

I am guilty of a multitude of sins but tobacco, smoking, and drugs are not on that list.