Leading singing/Shape notes and hand movements.

[longdistancerunner]

Of course the idea of not using instrumental music probably came from Alexander Campbell and he didn't advocate it as a theological/scriptural issue. He just advocated it because it was more similar in practice to the early Christians, he had no real opposition to instruments in worship and went to churches where they were used.

[zeek]

Ivy said:



I had a pitch pipe and was trained to use it and would have but for one thing. At the congregation I attended there were two people who believed it constituted instrumental music in the worship. The Elders left it up to me to decide what to do about it. They didn't have a problem with it. I had a serious and deep conversation with each of the offended people and was convinced they were sincere and not just trying to be a pain. So, I found myself in the following situation. If I used the pitch pipe and those two people joined in the singing, I was causing them to sin because the New Testament clearly teaches that if we engage in something we believe to be wrong it is sin. On the other hand, If I used the pitch pipe and they, for conscience sake, didn't join in the singing, I was hindering them from worshiping. I left the pitch pipe at home, where I would use it in practicing songs and just winged it during the worship service. Thankfully, there weren't many times that I really, really screwed up the pitch of a song badly.

Wow. Impressive that you really considered others before self. I respect that.

But that said, i.e. that you did the right thing according to your conscience at the time...I have also seen situations where there were "phantom offendees" (I think I can credit Moogy for coining that term) who controlled how far the church could go spiritually. Many times we didn't know who they were; praycher would just tell us there were "those who were offended", so we couldn't do such and such thing.

Ah, yes, I well remember those "phantom offendees" as well. I've known elders to use them as a shield rather than take the heat because THEY were against something. I always thought that if someone wasn't willing to publicly own that they had an issue with something then they and their feelings should just be disregarded.

[SolaDude]

My experiences with "phantom offendees" in the CofC always seemed to center around a group of old ladies who sat in the back of the church....not so "phantom". Everything that happened it seemed, came from them. One thing I remember was that they got a new minister canned for having members read "The Gospel Blimp". Lots of "vigorous discussion" at the congregational meeting over that firing and that book, some people walked out that day and never came back. I guess the New Testament was "silent" about blimps.

[Ivy]

My experiences with "phantom offendees" in the CofC always seemed to center around a group of old ladies who sat in the back of the church....not so "phantom". Everything that happened it seemed, came from them. One thing I remember was that they got a new minister canned for having members read "The Gospel Blimp". Lots of "vigorous discussion" at the congregational meeting over that firing and that book, some people walked out that day and never came back. I guess the New Testament was "silent" about blimps.

I thought the little ladies sat about midway up the auditorium. But your ladies must have situated themselves in the back so they could call out anyone who acted up, slept, talked, etc., during the service.

[SolaDude]

At a CofC in my area a number of years ago, the old ladies objected to preaching on Galatians, you know the Galatian Heresy type stuff, and as a result of their responsive input, 5 ministers demonstrably walked out all at once during a Sunday morning service, one I know ended up at an Independent Christian Church.

CofC = squabbles/splits

[Ivy]

At a CofC in my area a number of years ago, the old ladies objected to preaching on Galatians, you know the Galatian Heresy type stuff, and as a result of their responsive input, 5 ministers demonstrably walked out all at once during a Sunday morning service, one I know ended up at an Independent Christian Church.

CofC = squabbles/splits

The Galatian Heresy!!! I have to say I've never heard of it!! Must have been after my time? What was the heresy?

[Moogy]

At a CofC in my area a number of years ago, the old ladies objected to preaching on Galatians, you know the Galatian Heresy type stuff, and as a result of their responsive input, 5 ministers demonstrably walked out all at once during a Sunday morning service, one I know ended up at an Independent Christian Church.

CofC = squabbles/splits

The Galatian Heresy!!! I have to say I've never heard of it!! Must have been after my time? What was the heresy?

I want to know also!

[SolaDude]

I'll try. You can find a lot on it by Googling it as well. But briefly, these are just my words:

You'll never hear the term "Galatian Heresy" in the CofCs. But the term simply describes or summarizes the fact that Paul's letter to the Galatian church was written because they had turned to and believed "another gospel", i.e., that Gentile believers had to adhere to Jewish customs to achieve justification. Hence they had succumbed to a "heresy" concerning justification and therefore were really an heretical church. Such adherence, as a matter of obedience to law to justify one, was to be rejected (he even used the word "accursed"). Instead, faith, for both Gentile and Jewish believers, was the basis of justification, not works or deeds of any kind of law.

[Ivy]

I'll try. You can find a lot on it by Googling it as well. But briefly, these are just my words:

You'll never hear the term "Galatian Heresy" in the CofCs. But the term simply describes or summarizes the fact that Paul's letter to the Galatian church was written because they had turned to and believed "another gospel", i.e., that Gentile believers had to adhere to Jewish customs to achieve justification. Hence they had succumbed to a "heresy" concerning justification and therefore were really an heretical church. Such adherence, as a matter of obedience to law to justify one, was to be rejected (he even used the word "accursed"). Instead, faith, for both Gentile and Jewish believers, was the basis of justification, not works or deeds of any kind of law.

Oh, my goodness!!

[SolaDude]

I'll try. You can find a lot on it by Googling it as well. But briefly, these are just my words:

You'll never hear the term "Galatian Heresy" in the CofCs. But the term simply describes or summarizes the fact that Paul's letter to the Galatian church was written because they had turned to and believed "another gospel", i.e., that Gentile believers had to adhere to Jewish customs to achieve justification. Hence they had succumbed to a "heresy" concerning justification and therefore were really an heretical church. Such adherence, as a matter of obedience to law to justify one, was to be rejected (he even used the word "accursed"). Instead, faith, for both Gentile and Jewish believers, was the basis of justification, not works or deeds of any kind of law.

Oh, my goodness!!

The reason you won't hear it interpreted that way in the CofC is because they view Ephesians as meaning we're not under Jewish law, BUT that doesn't mean we're not under law. That's because we're absolutely still under law, it's just that it's substitutionary. All the laws of the Old Testament have been substituted with the "law of Christ" which means all the "commandments" of the New Testament. So, get it together, you stupid Ephesians, read your New Testament like you used to read the Pentateuch.