Religion vs Spirituality

[agricola]

Such visuals to me just ring false, and as a product of fuzzy thinking/illogic. But I could be prejudiced by the various people I've met who claimed the 'spiritual but not religious' title. Fuzzy thinking - having a hard time is 'going through hell' and 'being spiritual' means everything is sweetness and light and good thoughts?

I used to know a woman who said she was a Christian (and didn't join a church because she was 'spiritual but not religious') because she thought she was a nice person and because her family 'always' celebrated Christmas (tree plus gifts). She'd never attended a church of any kind, never read the Bible AT ALL. Hadn't heard of Moses (she didn't even see the movie!) and seriously thought that Santa and the reindeer were in the Bible 'somewhere' because of Christmas. I call people like her 'generic American Protestants', and if they DO join a church, it is usually something called 'non-denominational' and is vaguely Baptist in theology - except hardly anyone attending there knows that, because God forbid they should actually learn anything about DOCTRINES.

How do you even talk to people like that? There is nowhere to START.

[Ramblin' Jack]

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[agricola]

Interesting -

and by the way, I am PERFECTLY aware that my attitude of instant suspicion and doubt toward memes such as the Native American (clue: innately spiritual) on the horse (clue: rural/unspoiled) is strongly colored by my upbringing in the coc. Just before anybody else points that out.


I don't care for that 'footprints' thing, either. Like an abused dog, I shy away from the outstretched hand of 'sweetness' out of suspicion that it holds a stick.

IMO, the Christian message is all about 'God loves you, that's why God invented Hell'. Hello? This is supposed to be 'good'? Hey, I read 1984, didn't anybody else?

[agricola]

For those who don't follow links:

definition of MTD:

It is this combination of beliefs that they label Moralistic Therapeutic Deism:

A god exists who created and ordered the world and watches over human life on earth.
God wants people to be good, nice, and fair to each other, as taught in the Bible and by most world religions.
The central goal of life is to be happy and to feel good about oneself.
God does not need to be particularly involved in one's life except when God is needed to resolve a problem.
Good people go to heaven when they die.

Sounds like half the people I know. What message does this send about God? Don't worry, Be Happy? God is about NICE? God is useless except when you have a problem (what is that, the Dear Abby God?)

OTOH, the world could use some 'nice'. There are certainly worse views than that one.

comments about the rest of the wiki entry:

The biggest complaint about it is whether 'deism' is proper or whether it should be 'theism' instead. The people who make this objection are people who like 'deism' as it used to be defined.

I like the guy who called MTD 'theologically insipid'. I also agree with him that its a pretty useful sort of 'civil religion' for a very diverse religious nation like the US!

These are the same people (MTD) as the ones who keep telling us that 'all religions are essentially alike', right? Because they know so much (little) about them!

[Lev]

I had never heard of MTD until I read the post above but its description instantly 'clicked' with me. This definitely describes the type of quasi-Christianity that is a) most common, and b) most well-accepted in the US today. It's not threatening. It doesn't require much. Strangely enough, though, I see these MTDers (for lack of a better term) as some of the most ardent defenders of what they perceive to be Christianity against the perceived threats of Islam, atheism, and an overtly secular American government. It's as if they're defending something that they aren't even totally convinced of--or dedicated to--themselves.

Perhaps I'm being too critical. Like Agricola, I acknowledge the probably permanent effects on my psyche that growing up in the COC had. I'm more suspicious and more critical of 'lukewarmness' than I probably should be. Since leaving the COC I find myself drawn toward theologies like NT Wright's, Tim Keller's, and Francis Chan's. Belief systems that, in my opinion, shake off the weight of unnecessary and illogical theologies but that replace it with a deeper, truer, and in some ways more demanding lifestyle of faith. These theologies aren't for everyone; they're just the sort of thing that appeal to me now.

Lev

[JKendallDane]

I guess I just take the meme in my OP differently.

To me it is saying that religion tends to concentrate on the legalism, traditions, and man-agreed-upon doctrines...whereas spirituality is what grows within a person and opens you up to who and what God and His message actually is.

Organized religion has a long history of teaching fear. Discovering your spirituality teaches you why you don't need to fear.

[KLP]

I get the notion of contrasting a cold dead religion with a vibrant faith/spirituality. That is an easy and obvious dichotomy with a black and white contrast...one is defined as lacking and one is defined as good. So yeah, I get that and everyone wants to put themselves in the "good" category as opposed to the "bad".

Still, I find it ironic that the Indian culture was chosen to represent freedom from tradition. But it is a cool picture of a horse and rider. Sadly the suffering of the Indians continues even today on many reservations, but I am not so sure it is leading to personal growth.

[Lev]

But it is a cool picture of a horse and rider. Sadly the suffering of the Indians continues even today on many reservations, but I am not so sure it is leading to personal growth.

Perhaps this picture, or an image of pretty much any other person, could replace the detestable portrait of Andrew Jackson on the US$20 bill. I don't know of any one person, except perhaps Christopher Columbus, who has personally caused more suffering to native Americans than President Jackson.

This is admittedly off-topic.

Lev

[KLP]

But it is a cool picture of a horse and rider. Sadly the suffering of the Indians continues even today on many reservations, but I am not so sure it is leading to personal growth.

Perhaps this picture, or an image of pretty much any other person, could replace the detestable portrait of Andrew Jackson on the US$20 bill. I don't know of any one person, except perhaps Christopher Columbus, who has personally caused more suffering to native Americans than President Jackson.

This is admittedly off-topic.

Lev

Maybe, but then I don't think Andrew Jackson or Columbus have much to do with the social problems and suffering of Indians these days. I have tried them both and personally I prefer the Benjamin over the double sawbuck

[Lev]

I don't know of any one person, except perhaps Christopher Columbus, who has personally caused more suffering to native Americans than President Jackson.

Maybe, but then I don't think Andrew Jackson or Columbus have much to do with the social problems and suffering of Indians these days. I have tried them both and personally I prefer the Benjamin over the double sawbuck

I suppose it depends on your thoughts regarding the connection of a culture's past to its current condition. My view is that one's bootstraps can only be lifted so high.

Lev