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Re: Down the Rabbit Hole
Posted: Mon Jan 11, 2016 1:28 pm
by KLP
Lev wrote:.... the COC claim that first century Christian gatherings would have looked a lot like 21st century COC "worship services" just with different clothes and in a different language. I have heard that very claim from COCers--that they could walk into a first century church meeting in, say, Ephesus, and would need only a tunic and a translator to fit right in. Rubbish! A modern COCer would probably not even recognize a first century church as such.
Lev
Agreed. I have heard that assertion made. And not is it absurd it is not knowable or provable..so it is just an assertion. The whole concept around church property of signage/marketing/buildings/center aisle/time schedules would be unknown. Then the strict order of services along with the didactic/lecture mode of preaching to the converted would likely not be recognized.
Re: Down the Rabbit Hole
Posted: Mon Jan 11, 2016 1:50 pm
by B.H.
williamray123 wrote:bnot wrote:The A.D 33 is beyond ridiculous. For me as a teen, I read the infamous one true church tract by James R. Cope from Florida College
http://ex-churchofchrist.com/5acts.htm and saw all the dates and the founders of the "denominations". But if he properly researched the coc he could have listed the coc founders and a more accurate date (1889), but no coc bible gangster will ever admit to their true origin.
I ordered a book from Florida College on "biblical authority" by Ferrell Jenkins. He speaks of Alexander Campbell's "sermon on the law" (basically one of the founding documents of the coc) and in his book he says it was delivered to the "redstone association" ... HE conveniently leaves out that this was the "redstone BAPTIST association". This book is in its 20th or so printing so this is not a misprint. He is basically hiding the fact that Alexander Campbell was a member of the baptist association. I believe his father was a presbyterian... but we are founded in 33AD!
Alexander Campbell was an ordained Presbyterian minister as was his father. The father was defrocked for offering communion to non-Presyterian Christians in Sunday services on the western frontier. Alexander Campbell came to be against infant baptism and was immersed as an adult by a Baptist preacher named Luce. He was not ever baptized again as far as I can remember.
I've read over some of Ferrell Jenkin's website. He has a nice set of photographs from his trips to the holy lands.
Re: Down the Rabbit Hole
Posted: Mon Jan 11, 2016 1:53 pm
by B.H.
klp wrote:Lev wrote:.... the COC claim that first century Christian gatherings would have looked a lot like 21st century COC "worship services" just with different clothes and in a different language. I have heard that very claim from COCers--that they could walk into a first century church meeting in, say, Ephesus, and would need only a tunic and a translator to fit right in. Rubbish! A modern COCer would probably not even recognize a first century church as such.
Lev
Agreed. I have heard that assertion made. And not is it absurd it is not knowable or provable..so it is just an assertion. The whole concept around church property of signage/marketing/buildings/center aisle/time schedules would be unknown. Then the strict order of services along with the didactic/lecture mode of preaching to the converted would likely not be recognized.
Judging from I Corinthians 11-14 there was probably more interaction between the speaker and the audience, at least the audience members with a penis. Always remember women, no matter how we men try to be humble about it, a penis makes us a smarter and uh better than all of you. You have to be silent. Silent!
Re: Down the Rabbit Hole
Posted: Mon Jan 11, 2016 3:29 pm
by onward
B.H. wrote: Alexander Campbell was an ordained Presbyterian minister as was his father. The father was defrocked for offering communion to non-Presyterian Christians in Sunday services on the western frontier. Alexander Campbell came to be against infant baptism and was immersed as an adult by a Baptist preacher named Luce. He was not ever baptized again as far as I can remember.
In today's mainline CoC tribes his baptism would be null and void, completely unacceptable, since it was performed by a dreaded denominational Baptist preacher! The Campbell's wouldn't fit, nor want to fit, in these churches.
Re: Down the Rabbit Hole
Posted: Mon Jan 11, 2016 4:48 pm
by KLP
Can't say what Alexander Campbell would do today or in this culture/situation. He might go ahead and be baptized just to take it off the table like Paul having Timothy be circumcised when Paul advocated it meant nothing. Or he might argue that baptism is baptism and that to require another baptism is evidence of being baptized into a denomination. Interesting to think about what would happen were there such an Iconic figure who returned.
Re: Down the Rabbit Hole
Posted: Mon Jan 11, 2016 6:09 pm
by Pitts S2C
Would hardline coc'ers listen to Campell if he returned today? I've always wondered if they would actually listen to Paul or even Jesus if they returned. They would just want to argue with them (of course using BCV).
Re: Down the Rabbit Hole
Posted: Mon Jan 11, 2016 10:34 pm
by Opie
In 1866 when Alexander Campbell was on his death bed, he is reported to have said "I have always regretted that the Baptists and we had to part, it ought not to have been so." So it seems very doubtful that Alexander Campbell would be welcome in any CoC today. My personal opinion is that if Alex were alive today, he most likely would be a member of the First Christian Church/Disciples of Christ.
Re: Down the Rabbit Hole
Posted: Mon Jan 11, 2016 11:08 pm
by Lev
Opie wrote:My personal opinion is that if Alex were alive today, he most likely would be a member of the First Christian Church/Disciples of Christ.
...denominations which he also started, in addition to the COC.
Re: Down the Rabbit Hole
Posted: Tue Jan 12, 2016 12:08 am
by B.H.
Someone I know read through some of the records of James Garfield. Some claim him as the only Church of Christ who became president of the United States. My friend, who read Garfield's records, said that he was more along the lines of what became the Christian Church instead of the Church of Christ.
Re: Down the Rabbit Hole
Posted: Tue Jan 12, 2016 12:16 am
by onward
The church Campbell envisioned has splintered so many times it would be impossible for him to recognize the mess.