klp wrote:So are yall arguing that there is no punishment or come-uppance for the wicked? That God will not take His vengeance and punish the evil for their deeds? Where is the "cosmic" justice that is supposed to motivate/convince one to let God handle things in Hs way? Why would Jesus tell the story of the rich man and Lazarus? It shows this notion of an overall justice being meted out and that there is a place a punishment in the afterlife and at least Jews were going there who disregard God's instructions.
Perhaps punishment is not eternal? But reward and life are eternal? Maybe.
Of course making assertions about Man having an immortal soul at conception (or before) is really a non-factor as to whether he eventually does live on immortally, since the argument is that "life" is granted later (at or after physical death).
I am trying to understand what practical difference the idea that man does not automatically have an eternal soul... how does it effect how one lives their life. Unless one accepts a version of nihilism I don't see how it makes a difference. And yes, I get that nihilism (how ever you get there) is sort of an "option plan" in this case. Where one can opt to go for eternal life (the double bonus round) or not. And really there is no real consequence or downside for not opting to be on God's side or to be trying to with God. What happens to the truly evil and hurtful people...nothing?
How is this position of nihilism not just as susceptible to the charge of "feel good" emotion based doctrine as is anything else? That it just makes the people feel better and therefore they are all for it like "faith only" or like notions where most everybody makes it to heaven no matter what (purgatory, many paths up the mountain, etc)?
Jesus' parable of Lazarus and the rich man was of course designed to teach a lesson, and it was taught in terms his audience would naturally 'get'. Ideas about there even BEING an afterlife came about only during/after the Babylonian exile - there is little or nothing (outside the book of Daniel, which is post exile anyway) that hints at their being any existence past this one.
The Sadducees denied that there even WAS an afterlife (and therefore had no teachings about what it was going to be like). The Pharisees (and popularization among the people generally) thought there WAS one - but exactly what it would be like was a raging discussion, because - of course - there was nothing written about it in the (existing at the time) scriptures.
Then you had the Greeks moving through the area with Alexander, followed by the Greek-influenced Romans, bringing their dualism (body/soul, material/spiritual) philosophy and their also already existing ideas about an afterlife (Hades, lord of the underworld, etc). So late Second Temple period Jews had plenty of examples to draw on, plus their own speculations.
Since Christianity, growing out of Judaism but largely in the Greco-Roman environment, has the doctrine of soul immortality, heaven and hell and judgment day (mostly Zoroastrian) and the idea of the division between the material/bodily world and the spiritual/soul world.
The NT books are a reasonably good source, in fact, for some of the variety of interpretations going on in that period of time - we don't have a lot written from that period. The docs in the Dead Sea collection present some ideas, and the Talmud collects ideas and sayings from the second temple period, but they weren't written down and compiled until around the third/fourth century CE by which time some ideas had won out over others, so probably the 'winners' got more prominent attention.
Judaism (modern) grew out of the same period and the same environment, but rejected the dualism philosophy which elevates the spiritual/soul above the material/body, and provisionally rejected the idea of soul immortality. Plus Judaism has a heaven concept (although not strongly developed in any particulars as to exactly what it consists of) and a limited purgatory concept, but no 'hell'. The soul that sins, dies - that is, the truly evil are not gifted with a resurrection. Judaism has no concept of an eternal punishment, nor is 'the devil' any kind of opponent to God in any meaningful way at all (in fact, the satan is one of God's angels, tasked with tempting humans to use their FREE WILL - either to choose the evil, or to choose the good - the story of Jesus in the wilderness and the devil tempting him is right in that tradition - the devil has no power to compel, only the ability to tempt).
There are some conflicting ideas about what happens at the end of time - some say that all people are resurrected FOR JUDGMENT but the truly evil just get - basically - their day in court and are sentenced and that's it. Others think the truly evil don't get resurrected at all - they just die once and that's the end of them. However, none of those ideas ever made it as far as getting any kind of official blessing. They exist, that's all. Even the concept of reincarnation of the soul into multiple bodies exists (and is a common motif in some kinds of kabbalah) but none of those ideas are any kind of official doctrine - they are 'hypotheses' that never became 'theory' (doctrine).
Christianity has the Revelation (book), but Judaism has no such 'official source' for the end days. This is not considered much of a problem, since our focus is directed on 'this world' which is the 'world of action' where we can actually make a difference.