Ex-Church of Christ Support Board

My head agrees with you, Agricola, but I admit that my heart misses the days of school sponsored Christmas activities. Those are some sweet memories. I get it, though; I really do. Just being honest, here!

Oh! And I forgot to add, thanks for clearing up that whole "Jews can't know their lineage due to the destruction of the temple" stuff I learned in cofC. Your explanation makes a lot more sense to me. I'm always learning!

klp wrote:Yes, families have traditions and no one knows how accurate things are. Any one set of original records only goes so far. Traditions have been known to have been invented for various reasons and sometimes even an honest mistake maybe. I would not trust any specific details when there is a dependence on so many different source to fill in gaps and ranges on centuries. Supposedly we cannot trust the Bible or ancient text since they were copies of copies and errors are made and things are inserted to embellish here and there and there are forgeries. Some claim just about none of the NT is authentic. So how are birth records from so many sources, cobbled together suddenly to be trusted? DNA showing some commonality is probably the most reliable IMO...everything else IMO is just a good story when someone says they can trace someone to back to Adam or Noah or Levi. To me it starts to sound like reincarnation wishful thinking where someone is always connected to someone or something famous or significant in the past.

Absolutely - even my own family has a tradition that great great great etc grandpa fought 'with Washington', but I looked into that some years back, and it was (for one) g'g'g' etc's BROTHER who fought with the Virginia regiment, and (for two) if he ever laid eyes on Washington, it was a passing glimpse, most likely. He was a private in a small company raised by some captain I never heard of, and served a normal career for that time - roughly a year. In other words, family tradition isn't exactly wrong, but it isn't exactly right, either. (uncle several times removed ancestor also served in the War of 1812 - he was very young the first time and very old the second (I think he did clerical stuff in his 70's or something). He got a pension for it, and I've seen a scan of the paperwork, so there).

Need I comment that the guy I know who claims descent from King David through Hillel - well, I take that with a grain of salt. Maybe he really is tribe of Judah, and MAYBE he's not only tribe of Judah but also from the family of David - I mean, it is certainly POSSIBLE. Kings (especially) in that area and time certainly had a whole clutch of wives and concubines and sons numbered in the dozens (the first King of Saudi Arabia had about 75 sons, for instance, and that's not even a 100 years ago - some of them are still alive). Such a prolific progenitor can end up leaving a LOT of descendants!

I remember I read someplace that 80 or 90 percent of the male population of Mongolia can be traced back to Genghis Khan, after all. Now THAT'S biological success!

I always felt like a religious outsider in public school. I wasn't supposed to recited the Lord's Prayer along with everyone else. I didn't sing religious songs in music class if we had instrumental music. (I have never really forgiven the teacher who angrily said in front of the whole class that she didn't believe me that I had a religious reason for sitting out one of the songs. What in the heck was she thinking, to publicly criticize a child about her religion!) I was more strict with some of the rules than my parents. And then there was not participating in square dancing in gym class. Wearing a skirt over my gym shorts if we went outside...

These experiences made me stronger later in life when I made choices that were not mainstream.

Once in junior high a teacher laughingly called me out about being a "Campbellite". I didn't even know
what he meant but had kind of an idea it was about my family's religion. Of course I was mortified. I think
the man was actually cofc himself and thought it was funny.

Ivy wrote:Once in junior high a teacher laughingly called me out about being a "Campbellite". I didn't even know
what he meant but had kind of an idea it was about my family's religion. Of course I was mortified. I think
the man was actually cofc himself and thought it was funny.

Oh my goodness.

agricola wrote:...
But you know what that sounds like? All those people who say 'I was spanked and I grew up okay'. So what? That doesn't make it right. And shouldn't we want better for our kids than the way we had it? I grew up without seat belts either and 'I grew up okay' but that doesn't mean I let my kids ride in the car without buckling up.

We did a lot of things in the past that were fine maybe THEN, but we - one hopes - know better now than we did then, and we don't need to keep repeating the old patterns over and over again just because they were fine THEN.

Again, as I say, from what I can see of society, institutions, and culture I am not convinced of the wisdom of these so called improvements.

klp wrote:Again, as I say, from what I can see of society, institutions, and culture I am not convinced of the wisdom of these so called improvements.

I would imagine that one's opinion on the 'wisdom' of cultural changes such as those we're discussing here depends quite heavily on one's own position within said culture.

Lev

Lev wrote:

klp wrote:Again, as I say, from what I can see of society, institutions, and culture I am not convinced of the wisdom of these so called improvements.

I would imagine that one's opinion on the 'wisdom' of cultural changes such as those we're discussing here depends quite heavily on one's own position within said culture.

Lev

But some seem to think there is an objective measurement. So there are studies and stats on such topics as education performance, reading ability, economic mobility, personal success and attainment, etc. Or...one can just talk to people or watch the man on the street interviews by Leno, Kimmel, Waters, and others. But yes, it is subjective on my part to consider campus protests over Taco Tuesday or Yoga for being offensive cultural appropriations to not be an improvement.

agricola wrote:Absolutely - even my own family has a tradition that great great great etc grandpa fought 'with Washington', but I looked into that some years back, and it was (for one) g'g'g' etc's BROTHER who fought with the Virginia regiment, and (for two) if he ever laid eyes on Washington, it was a passing glimpse, most likely. He was a private in a small company raised by some captain I never heard of, and served a normal career for that time - roughly a year. In other words, family tradition isn't exactly wrong, but it isn't exactly right, either. (uncle several times removed ancestor also served in the War of 1812 - he was very young the first time and very old the second (I think he did clerical stuff in his 70's or something). He got a pension for it, and I've seen a scan of the paperwork, so there).

Need I comment that the guy I know who claims descent from King David through Hillel - well, I take that with a grain of salt. Maybe he really is tribe of Judah, and MAYBE he's not only tribe of Judah but also from the family of David - I mean, it is certainly POSSIBLE. Kings (especially) in that area and time certainly had a whole clutch of wives and concubines and sons numbered in the dozens (the first King of Saudi Arabia had about 75 sons, for instance, and that's not even a 100 years ago - some of them are still alive). Such a prolific progenitor can end up leaving a LOT of descendants!

I remember I read someplace that 80 or 90 percent of the male population of Mongolia can be traced back to Genghis Khan, after all. Now THAT'S biological success!

Yes, and one set of records says Jesus is of the tribe of Judah and in the line of King David. Jesus's father is God and his mother is Mary. I have seen the paper work, or at least what passes as an acceptable notion of a birth certificate. IMO if the Bible text itself is not to be trusted then what basis is there in any other such ancient claim of tribe membership? Seems rather arbitrary to me to put one in the category of guess/faith and the other as reliable. To me it seems that the original documents threshold would be consistently applied if it is to be used at all.

So I do not take it as a slam on Jews if they cannot trace back to a particular tribe founder, I think the entre notion is impossible for anyone given world history and time and chance. It would seem to me to require an element of faith to have trust in any such claim that is multiple thousands of year in origin.