So, some Jehovah's witness knocked on my door...

[KLP]

I have decided my response to them will be, "I left one cult and have no desire to join another, thank you very much."

Start your own cult, I hear it is fabulous to be the lead dog.

[Pitts S2C]

I just wish the comedian George Carlin who had strong views on religion and the existence of God could rise from the dead and tell us clearly & bluntly exactly whats on the other side. He's either dead all over like Rover or he had the shock of his life when he died.

[Lev]

KLP, as for the concept of eternal punishment for the wicked, I've looked at it quite a bit recently and found that there isn't as much scriptural support for this as I had been led to believe from the COC (and, to be fair, from nearly all other Christian denominations as well). Most NT warnings follow the same model as the one Agricola cited: the soul that sins shall die. None plainly states that the wicked will live forever in eternal conscious torment. There's the business of the worm dying not in Mark 9, but it's not clear to me that this means what it's often presented as meaning.

I hesitate to say much here because it's a subject that I'm still very much in the middle of studying. I've only recently been able to reject the "I'll fly away" notion of heaven as some disembodied existence apart from the earth and the bodily reality we now know, albeit in some kind of perfected form. I have NT Wright to thank for that. I hope to soon have as much clarity on "hell" as I have recently begun to gain on heaven.

Lev

[Opie]

Lev, I've also been reading N.T. Wright lately, and he presents some very helpful viewpoints on this subject. His books 'Surprised by Hope' and 'After You Believe' have been especially helpful to me.

[B.H.]

I find eternal punishment of the wicked a comforting doctrine. Islam does teach burning in hell fire and I am not sorry or apologetic for it. There are truly wicked people who need their come uppins. Why should I believe and have faith and do good and those who do evil get off light?

[agricola]

maybe - but FOREVER?? And isn't dying and not getting to heaven punishment enough?

[KLP]

I am not arguing this point as if I am definite on the matter or that I know exactly what is right or wrong about afterlife. But I have a habit of looking for evidence to the contrary when something seems to be the consensus. So some thoughts but not in an particular order:

1. Jesus says that there is reason to fear an entity that is able to kill both the body and the soul. If one does not have a soul to begin with then why fear that...it seems Jesus thought man had a soul and that it was a fearful thing to consider what God could do to it.

2. Jesus called the Jewish leaders vipers and scum and asked did they think they could escape the punishment damnation of Hell?

3. Jesus taught at judgment the righteous and wicked would both be given an eternal disposition. Jesus told the story of the rich man and Lazarus. Why would Jesus repeatedly refer to a concept of afterlife punishment if he knew it to be false or non-existent? This would be deceptive.

4. Peter, John, and Paul all refer to an afterlife punishment that results from behaviors determined or reviewed at judgment.

5. I get that the concept of Hell is a problem for the human mind in current times at least to make sense given the constant talk about the love of God. But this to me seems as much an emotional response (who punishes forever?) as it is a logical response. Yet why would Jesus and his apostles refer and teach this if it were not true?

6. I think the emotional response and revulsion at the idea of such punishment is like Abraham not wanting to see Sodom and Gomorrah and cites of the plain destroyed wholesale. Or like Moses interceding on behalf of the Israelites when God was going to wipe them out and start over. Perhaps it is a minimizing of what sin really is that makes mankind think that the punishment God has in mind is so out of line.

7. On this idea of an emotional problem with the proportionality of punishment of eternal fire...it seems not unlike the notion of why do good people suffer or why do children suffer/die from cancer? These are terrible things and make no sense and seem to serve no purpose...yet they happen. Eternal punishment seems to serve no purpose and seems to be way put of line...does that mean it is not a reality?

8. Sure there is very little technical information or proof of an after life (good or bad). Is there really that much less information about Hell than there is about actual information about Heaven? Why is Heaven more believable based on the little information there is on hand? Seems to Heaven is just more acceptable and desirable but there is still little information other than "it exists and you can go there someday". And really that is about all there is about Hell..."it exists and you can go there some day".

9. Many or even most Jews at various points of time may have felt or believed there was no afterlife/punishment. I do not see how that is informative on the reality of an afterlife. They also thought it was better to go back to Egypt and to engage in worship of idols and local gods. David had a strong notion of an afterlife both a good one and a bad one.

10. Ultimately I think discounting Hell leads to a rejection of the entire thing. I do not see how one can reject the notion of Hell without admitting that Jesus was in some way in error. For those that accept Jesus as the perfect and sinless Son of God, how can anyone presume to know better than Jesus? So if Jesus (and apostles) did not deceive or mislead then there must be a problem with the text itself. At some point then the dominoes start to fall it would seem. And of course the existence of a slippery slope does not itself argue one way or the other. But it would seem reasonable to at least entertain the notion that if there is no Hell then perhaaps there is no Heaven or afterlife. I do not see how someone can contain the topic to just discounting Hell.

But yes, I understand that Hell is a very difficult concept to make fit with the notion of a all loving God. In particular it seems totally outline to think that using instruments of music is worthy of the same punishment as rape/murder of innocent children. Yes, Hell is a very difficult concept but that just means it is difficult, not that it is not real.

[agricola]

One view of hell is that it is the realization that one is distant/lost from God - in other words, hell is in your head.

[NeverAgain]

Well, the atheist view of both heaven and hell is that both are fantasies concocted by superstitious primitives and perpetuated into the present age by delusional wishful thinkers. There is no evidence of an afterlife, nor for that matter is there any evidence whatsoever for a god or a devil or any other invisible, voiceless, powerless, ever-absent beings. And basing any kind of belief on the often contradictory fictional compositions of 40 or so individuals from thousands of years ago would be ludicrous in any field except religion.

[KLP]

Well, the atheist view of both heaven and hell is that both are fantasies concocted by superstitious primitives and perpetuated into the present age by delusional wishful thinkers. There is no evidence of an afterlife, nor for that matter is there any evidence whatsoever for a god or a devil or any other invisible, voiceless, powerless, ever-absent beings. And basing any kind of belief on the often contradictory fictional compositions of 40 or so individuals from thousands of years ago would be ludicrous in any field except religion.

Wait...So you are saying Atheist don't believe in this stuff? What???? Are you feeling ignored or lonely over in the Skeptic lounge? But yes, I think most folks around here are aware that Atheist do not believe in this particular religion...but again, so what? That choice to not believe has no bearing on any other reality.