So, some Jehovah's witness knocked on my door...

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agricola
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Re: So, some Jehovah's witness knocked on my door...

Post by agricola »

Lev wrote:Well, OK I'll go ahead and take you up on your invitation to keep asking questions. Just say so if I begin to sound like a toddler asking: why, why, why... Deal?

Two questions related to your last post: 1. What led to the marginalized status of the priests within Judaism? and 2. Why do you suppose none of the four gospels makes it clear which movement Jesus was associated with? Reading the NT, I get the picture of Jesus as a radical independent, coming on the scene to shake everything up. An equal-opportunity revolutionary. If, as you say, he was part of one of the factions and had at least some degree of loyalty to that faction (by acknowledging the Pharisees' claim to authority), why isn't this made explicit? Two possible answers I can think of are that either it was well-known by the audiences of each of the gospels and thus didn't need to be said, or that by the time the gospels were written, Christianity had developed enough as its own movement that it didn't necessarily matter which "branch" of Judaism it had come from, just that it came from Judaism in general (sort of like when you meet a person who's moved to the US from Canada--they never say which province they're from, just "Canada").

Lev
So - my previous post answering BH should cover question 1 to an extent. The authority of high priest was at least tainted. From the Talmud we read that some were basically buying the position through bribery. Most of the priests were Sadducees, and aligned with the wealthier, aristocratic, urban social classes, and those people wanted to keep the status quo, and supported Roman rule within limits (they were opposed to having Rome interfere with religious practices centered around the Temple).

2. Most people who had lived through all this history and lived in the area would have been intimately familiar with it, and would see no reason to have to give a synopsis of history in their writings. Why should they?
If you were writing - say - a mystery novel, would you interrupt your narrative to summarize the Constitution and 200 years of US history? You'd assume your reader would already know it, and understand a comment about, say, 'the 60's' without any further description. And you might say 'the Kennedy's problem with Chappaquiddick' and your readers would know what you meant.

But in 500 to 1000 years, a reader probably wouldn't get it at all.

Probably the writers thought they WERE explicit, because their readers would know the background.

Also, after the period 69 to 135 CE, which is when a lot of the NT was written, the Temple had been destroyed (in 70 CE) which removed the main center of the priests and Sadducees, and the rebellions of 115 and 130-135 CE almost completely wiped out Judea (and the north to Galilee) altogether. It certainly destroyed or sent into exile, any Jewish Jesus-following groups.

So you ALSO had a largely gentile Christian body of Jesus-followers, who - as you mention - might not have bothered to differentiate all that strongly among the various philosophies within Judaism. Plus by that time, the ONLY Judaism was 'pharisaic Judaism'.

(Might explain why those NT quotes about the Sadducees always seem to add that little explanatory phrase 'who do not believe in the resurrection of the dead').
Paul Before the Sanhedrin
…7As he said this, there occurred a dissension between the Pharisees and Sadducees, and the assembly was divided. 8For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, nor an angel, nor a spirit, but the Pharisees acknowledge them all. 9And there occurred a great uproar; and some of the scribes of the Pharisaic party stood up and began to argue heatedly, saying, "We find nothing wrong with this man; suppose a spirit or an angel has spoken to him?"…

Matthew 22:23
That same day the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to him with a question.

Mark 12:18
Then the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to him with a question.

Luke 20:27
Some of the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to Jesus with a question.
History is the fiction we invent to persuade ourselves that events are knowable and that life has order and direction. That's why events are always reinterpreted when values change. We need new versions of history to allow for our current prejudices.
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KLP
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Re: So, some Jehovah's witness knocked on my door...

Post by KLP »

The warnings against necromancy and familiar spirits was early, early in the Israel history. And the first king (Saul) had moved to put these folks out of business one way or the other. Saul eventually has to seek out a witch so he can contact Samuel. Samuel is not happy about being disturbed.

So at least Saul thought it was possible to contact the dead and that there would be something to contact. And whether of not David or others wrote various segments of OT passages, it shows there was a notion of an afterlife in some spirit form concept with individuality and awareness. Sure, many things got more developed as more revelation was made particularly by Jesus and the Holy Spirit. That some Jews denied there was a resurrection or even an afterlife is just that...what some Jews believed and taught. Does not mean they were correct. And based on behavior of Saul we know some at least thought the dead could still be contacted, so they at least believed in an afterlife.
Isn't the world wonderful...I am all for rational optimism and I am staying positive.
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agricola
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Re: So, some Jehovah's witness knocked on my door...

Post by agricola »

Possibly but not necessarily. Saul/others of that time clearly thought it was possible to contact and communicate with the dead (ghosts?) but it is possible from the story that they thought the dead were 'asleep' and needed to be 'awakened' by a necromancer (good translation, by the way, for what is usually rendered 'witch'). Possibly they thought of death as a kind of endless sleep?
History is the fiction we invent to persuade ourselves that events are knowable and that life has order and direction. That's why events are always reinterpreted when values change. We need new versions of history to allow for our current prejudices.
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KLP
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Re: So, some Jehovah's witness knocked on my door...

Post by KLP »

My main point here is that some idea or notion of a life state of some type after physical death was held by early Jews. Saul tried contacting God but only got the answering machine and so reached out to Samuel for guidance. Why would he reach out to Samuel for guidance if he thought Samuel was asleep and not totally aware of the bigger picture happenings? As bizarre as the story is, it seems clear to me Saul had a notion that Samuel was alive, awake, aware and could give him the inside scoop...or else what is the point of asking someone who could know nothing and be of no help?
Isn't the world wonderful...I am all for rational optimism and I am staying positive.
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agricola
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Re: So, some Jehovah's witness knocked on my door...

Post by agricola »

I think from the story we can only assume a few things with some confidence - we aren't inside Saul's head so we don't know for sure what he thought.

Maybe -
people die and they are 'asleep' and can be awakened (maybe Saul wanted Samuel's wisdom rather than knowledge - maybe he wanted advice)
people die and they are in some kind of post-death limbo existence (and are sort of aware of what is going on)

We don't know even IF Saul thought or believed there was an actual post death destination (heaven, hell, limbo whatever) to which a soul might go.

Maybe he thought a witch could conjure up some kind of spirit that was just LIKE Samuel who would be able to advise him LIKE Samuel (maybe).

Maybe Saul thought you could raise up people who were RECENTLY dead - maybe he thought their ghost or spirit would be hanging around until the entire body decayed (I've read about cultures that believe that way). But at some point after death, the ghost/spirit was simply gone - decayed just like the body did.

Maybe he thought that when you die, your soul/spirit returns to God - but that witches could call them back again (plausible).
History is the fiction we invent to persuade ourselves that events are knowable and that life has order and direction. That's why events are always reinterpreted when values change. We need new versions of history to allow for our current prejudices.
margin overa
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Re: So, some Jehovah's witness knocked on my door...

Post by margin overa »

All of the above could certainly be the case - and also that it falls squarely into a kind of local legendry attributed to Saul's life by a later writer (like the one who posited that the sun and moon stood still for Joshua, if one takes that phrase literally).
Lev
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Re: So, some Jehovah's witness knocked on my door...

Post by Lev »

It seems that the story of Saul further complicates the inchoate understanding of what happens to a person after death that was shared, though not agreed upon, by Jews for centuries before Christ. It's important to note that we don't all have it nailed down yet either. Even restricting our consideration to Christianity, look at the variety of beliefs that coexist (or compete?) regarding the afterlife. You've got all the various -millennialisms, the "I'll fly away" school of thought, New Creation, purgatory, heaven & hell forever, heaven forever but hell temporarily, heaven for the good but annihilation for the bad, etc., etc. Sure, there have been notions of an afterlife circulating among Jewish people since near the very beginning. But those notions weren't cohesive or in agreement with one another, nor was there an "official" doctrine on the matter, even in scripture. Some people seem to have opted out of the whole discussion, preferring to spend their energy focusing on this life. My own opinion: it's probably something that we wouldn't be able to understand anyway. For that reason, while I enjoy the conjecture, I think it's probably ultimately unknowable.

Lev
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agricola
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Re: So, some Jehovah's witness knocked on my door...

Post by agricola »

I posted a link to a short article on what Judaism says about souls and afterlife topics on the 'Ask About Judaism' thread in New Paths, if anyone is interested.
History is the fiction we invent to persuade ourselves that events are knowable and that life has order and direction. That's why events are always reinterpreted when values change. We need new versions of history to allow for our current prejudices.
margin overa
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Re: So, some Jehovah's witness knocked on my door...

Post by margin overa »

Lev wrote:It seems that the story of Saul further complicates the inchoate understanding of what happens to a person after death that was shared, though not agreed upon, by Jews for centuries before Christ. It's important to note that we don't all have it nailed down yet either. Even restricting our consideration to Christianity, look at the variety of beliefs that coexist (or compete?) regarding the afterlife. You've got all the various -millennialisms, the "I'll fly away" school of thought, New Creation, purgatory, heaven & hell forever, heaven forever but hell temporarily, heaven for the good but annihilation for the bad, etc., etc. Sure, there have been notions of an afterlife circulating among Jewish people since near the very beginning. But those notions weren't cohesive or in agreement with one another, nor was there an "official" doctrine on the matter, even in scripture. Some people seem to have opted out of the whole discussion, preferring to spend their energy focusing on this life. My own opinion: it's probably something that we wouldn't be able to understand anyway. For that reason, while I enjoy the conjecture, I think it's probably ultimately unknowable.

Lev
I agree that it's an interesting discussion, and also agree that it's not a subject that is really a knowable, quantifiable "thing". I stated earlier that the contemporary interpretations that you reference above would likely either confuse a first-century Jesus follower, or simply be added to the melting pot that was first-century Christian belief. There wasn't ever any real agreement on the subject, Jewish or Christian, and the same is true now.
B.H.
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Re: So, some Jehovah's witness knocked on my door...

Post by B.H. »

Agricola,

What do you Jews think of Elijah the Prophet? Did he go to heaven to stay or did he die somehow in the chariot of fire?
The philosophers have only interpreted the world, in various ways; the point is to change it.----Karl Marx
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