Baptism

[Scott]

Curious as to what everyone thinks about Baptism and if it's needed for salvation.
Been studying Acts 10-11. Was Cornelius saved before Baptism?

[ena]

Curious as to what everyone thinks about Baptism and if it's needed for salvation.
Been studying Acts 10-11. Was Cornelius saved before Baptism?

Good question. Of course you know Acts 2:38. You might consider Christian Symbology. There is much. Are all things to be taken literally. I can maintain that when Christians meet on Wednesday night they should take communion. How would you prove any different. After all the first communion was not on a Sunday. God has been dealing with humans since the beginning. He is much more flexable than credited. The Church Of Christ tries to guilt you into their system and keep you trapped that way., Does God work that way? I do not know that everyone who was baptized in the bible understood it the same way. The New Testament was written by humans. They told the truth as they knew it. They do not agree everywhere. Take a look at the four resurrection stories. They all vary as to who was there. This is because they came from different traditions and locations. The accounts of the death of Judas vary. one he fell and burst asunder and another he hung himself.

[zeek]

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[KLP]

I can see no theological reason why a person wanting to be a Christian would refuse or deny baptism. Perhaps medical or physical reasons may exist in some cases, but baptism in the NT seems to be as common as is faith. Worrying over the expect point in time when a person becomes "saved" is just asking for arguments and division IMO....it was seemingly universally taught and practiced so it must be important therefore why would one refuse to do it? That is my approach to it.

[lvmaus]

Baptism is mentioned way too many times in the Bible to ignore the implications, and whether or not salvation occurs exactly at the point of coming up out of the water will probably be a subject of discussion forever. Baptism is required many times in the NT, and I see no reason not to comply, even if you consider the act a symbolic cleansing.

[zeek]

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[agricola]

Personally, I don't care one way or the other. I think the typical Christian understanding of what first century Jews thought of as 'salvation' is totally wrong from the get go.

[sonicrainkrieg42]

I dislike the CoC's policy of baptizing people as young as twelve. What does a twelve year old truly know about religion or spirituality?

[teresa]

Curious as to what everyone thinks about Baptism and if it's needed for salvation. Been studying Acts 10-11. Was Cornelius saved before Baptism?

We've talked about this a lot on the other board, the Discussion Board -- maybe too much. Let's see if I can sum up some of my thoughts on this. Speaking from a fundamentalist position (although I am not a fundamentalist):

1) The grand theme of salvation in the Bible is NOT about God declaring an individual justified and therefore a candidate for heaven when they die. In the Bible, the grand theme of salvation is about God making it possible for Israel to once again enjoy intimacy of familial relationship with God (Jeremiah 31:34) on this earth and in the age to come of a new creation. The NT teaches that God raised up Jesus, the seed of Abraham, to accomplish his salvation of Israel (Luke 1:67-68), to restore the intimacy of relationship between them (Luke 1:74-75). Paul taught that God's larger plan all along had been to save the whole world from the power of sin and death and restore humankind to intimacy of relationship with God, all this accomplished through the seed of Abraham.

2) Cornelius was in relationship with God before his baptism. We know that because Corneilus was called a God-fearer (meaning he revered God), and God heard his prayers. This being the case, it seems that if Cornelius had died, then on resurrection day, he would have been granted eternal life. However, Cornelius was not saved in the sense that the Bible speaks of salvation -- as God restoring intimacy of family relationship with his people. Cornelius was not yet a participant in the new covenant that God had made with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34). Cornelius did not yet have the privilege of knowing God as his Father nor had Cornelius experienced being loved by God as God's beloved child. Cornelius was still unaware that God's long-term plan through the seed of Abraham had been to restore humankind to intimacy of relationship with Him. Peter taught Cornelius that not only had God acted to forgive and reconcile the Jewish Messiah-followers to himself, God had acted to forgive and reconcile the Gentile Messiah-followers to himself as well (Acts 10:34).

[teresa]

continued from above

3) The earliest church was composed of Jewish Messiah-followers who were still in the process of learning that their new covenant familial relationship with God had now been extended to Gentile Messiah-followers. Reading between the lines, we see they were reluctant to baptize Cornelius. At that time, baptism was used by the Jews for Gentile converts wishing to become Jews. These Gentile converts would undertake to keep the Law, and if male be circumcised, with the final step being baptism. The individual arising from the waters of baptism was understood to be reborn as a new person, as a Jew, leaving his Gentile status behind.

4) Peter argued that since God had shown his acceptance of the Gentile Messiah-followers in the same way God had shown his acceptance of the Jewish Messiah-followers, then no one should forbid Cornelius baptism and rebirth into God's family. This meant that Cornelius could now participate in God's accomplished salvation, in which Messiah-followers enjoy intimacy of familial relationship with God, without Cornelius undertaking to keep the Law or be circumcised.

5) When the Jerusalem council got together to discuss the matter, they decided not to require Gentiles like Cornelius to keep the Law of Moses, even though the Gentiles had been baptized into God's family. Instead, the council asked the Gentiles to keep a set of laws that were regarded as having been given earlier by God to all humankind, before God called Abraham and his seed into special relationship with Him. The thought seems to have been that since the Gentile Messiah-followers attended the synagogues on a regular basis they would undoubtedly learn more about the Law of Moses over time (Acts 15:19-20).