So, does our attitude conduct and define the progression of our faith....or does our behavior conduct and define the progression of our faith....??
I proffer that we can't even begin to conduct ourselves before God as believers, as His children, or as anything period, until our faith becomes grounded in our hearts, the generational locus of attitude....and really driven out of a grounding in the intellectual part of our minds.....
Because once your attitude is generated, your behavior follows....and frankly, I do not see the CoC involved in attitude except cursorily or as an afterthought or eccentrically.....and really this fight between the heart and the mind/flesh is a real one and a lethal one....because once one's life becomes driven by attitude, the screw-ups in behavior can be forgiven, the concept of grace can be more closely grasped, and the concept of God's mercy can be more truly appreciated....
The ultimate attitude adjustment is actually to discover what attitude is, where it comes from, and how it sources life....did not Jesus talk about that all over the place??....if the CofC would get away from the Pauline epistles for a few minutes and start reading the gospels themselves, perhaps their attitude could actually change....
The Ultimate Attitude Adjustment
Re: The Ultimate Attitude Adjustment
Nope I radically disagree. BEHAVIOR drives attitude. DO first, and the 'feeling' arrives after.
This is actually proven experimentally - and empirically, in the famous Ben Franklin story (h**ps://curiosity.com/topics/how-to-make-people-like-you-with-the-benjamin-franklin-effect-curiosity/).
See also the words of the Israelites at Sinai - they didn't say 'tell us what to do' and they didn't say 'we hear and understand'. Instead, they said: 'We will DO and we will hear'.
Further - in Japan, one learns karate not by being told 'why' to punch like this, or kick like that, but by actually practicing 'like this, like that'. And by the time you are approaching competence, you will understand 'why' and not need telling (Japanese instructors invariably say they find Americans (in particular) difficult and confounding with their insistence that they need to be told 'why' before they have learned 'how').
Do things: obey the commandments. Even if you don't understand why, even if you don't LIKE it - because BY DOING, you will come to understand. Meanwhile, good has been done.
This is illustrated by the difference between the origin of the Greek derived word 'charity' which is the equivalent in Hebrew of the word 'tzedakah'. Each involves (in part) donating to good causes.
But 'charity' is 'from the heart', and people give because they (presumably) feel 'love' and 'want to give' - which is quite laudable. HOWEVER, 'tzedakah' is derived from the word JUSTICE. Give, not because your heart prompts you, but because IT IS THE RIGHT THING TO DO (and then, as a well known Jewish speaker once said: 'and if your heart catches up, terrific!').
Should the poor and starving have to wait until you FEEL like it? No! The poor and starving need food and help whether you feel like it or not, and they should not have to stand before you, and engage your FEELINGS in order to be fed, housed, and clothed.
Justice demands it.
The differences between Christianity and Judaism go far deeper than the question of whether Jesus was or wasn't 'the Messiah'.
This is actually proven experimentally - and empirically, in the famous Ben Franklin story (h**ps://curiosity.com/topics/how-to-make-people-like-you-with-the-benjamin-franklin-effect-curiosity/).
See also the words of the Israelites at Sinai - they didn't say 'tell us what to do' and they didn't say 'we hear and understand'. Instead, they said: 'We will DO and we will hear'.
Further - in Japan, one learns karate not by being told 'why' to punch like this, or kick like that, but by actually practicing 'like this, like that'. And by the time you are approaching competence, you will understand 'why' and not need telling (Japanese instructors invariably say they find Americans (in particular) difficult and confounding with their insistence that they need to be told 'why' before they have learned 'how').
Do things: obey the commandments. Even if you don't understand why, even if you don't LIKE it - because BY DOING, you will come to understand. Meanwhile, good has been done.
This is illustrated by the difference between the origin of the Greek derived word 'charity' which is the equivalent in Hebrew of the word 'tzedakah'. Each involves (in part) donating to good causes.
But 'charity' is 'from the heart', and people give because they (presumably) feel 'love' and 'want to give' - which is quite laudable. HOWEVER, 'tzedakah' is derived from the word JUSTICE. Give, not because your heart prompts you, but because IT IS THE RIGHT THING TO DO (and then, as a well known Jewish speaker once said: 'and if your heart catches up, terrific!').
Should the poor and starving have to wait until you FEEL like it? No! The poor and starving need food and help whether you feel like it or not, and they should not have to stand before you, and engage your FEELINGS in order to be fed, housed, and clothed.
Justice demands it.
The differences between Christianity and Judaism go far deeper than the question of whether Jesus was or wasn't 'the Messiah'.
History is the fiction we invent to persuade ourselves that events are knowable and that life has order and direction. That's why events are always reinterpreted when values change. We need new versions of history to allow for our current prejudices.
Re: The Ultimate Attitude Adjustment
Oh good grief we are in the support area. Darn it. Sorry.
SolaDude - you aren't WRONG about the coc and attitude, but I don't believe you've put your finger on the actual root of the problem.
However, do please consider that I AM sympathetic to the problem you've identified, and I don't disagree that the coc does in fact HAVE a problem with attitude. I just think that 'changing attitude' isn't the actual solution. Generosity of spirit isn't something people can just wake up and decide to 'have'. It has to grow out of deeds done.
People who are foremost and invariably concerned that any change they make is fraught with the risk of causing loss of 'salvation', are unlikely to feel stable enough to change anything, including 'attitude'. The coc teaches 'be afraid' and 'you can't be sure', and that teaching is the worst of all teachings, because it prevents change/renewal/growth/repentance/hope.
Can we agree there?
SolaDude - you aren't WRONG about the coc and attitude, but I don't believe you've put your finger on the actual root of the problem.
However, do please consider that I AM sympathetic to the problem you've identified, and I don't disagree that the coc does in fact HAVE a problem with attitude. I just think that 'changing attitude' isn't the actual solution. Generosity of spirit isn't something people can just wake up and decide to 'have'. It has to grow out of deeds done.
People who are foremost and invariably concerned that any change they make is fraught with the risk of causing loss of 'salvation', are unlikely to feel stable enough to change anything, including 'attitude'. The coc teaches 'be afraid' and 'you can't be sure', and that teaching is the worst of all teachings, because it prevents change/renewal/growth/repentance/hope.
Can we agree there?
History is the fiction we invent to persuade ourselves that events are knowable and that life has order and direction. That's why events are always reinterpreted when values change. We need new versions of history to allow for our current prejudices.
Re: The Ultimate Attitude Adjustment
Definitiely...everything you have said is really profound....it seems also culture is very relevant....like in Japan....and supports the proposition that everyone walk in the other fella's shoes before making final conclusions about anything....so that the old adage "East is east and west is west and never the twain shall meet" should not be so final....that can apply to each other's religious tradition, culture, upbringing, on on and on.....but I must say I am then somewhat perplexed as to why the attitude did not follow the behavior in the CoC....it would seem to me to be more than just "it never caught up"....agricola wrote:Oh good grief we are in the support area. Darn it. Sorry.
SolaDude - you aren't WRONG about the coc and attitude, but I don't believe you've put your finger on the actual root of the problem.
However, do please consider that I AM sympathetic to the problem you've identified, and I don't disagree that the coc does in fact HAVE a problem with attitude. I just think that 'changing attitude' isn't the actual solution. Generosity of spirit isn't something people can just wake up and decide to 'have'. It has to grow out of deeds done.
People who are foremost and invariably concerned that any change they make is fraught with the risk of causing loss of 'salvation', are unlikely to feel stable enough to change anything, including 'attitude'. The coc teaches 'be afraid' and 'you can't be sure', and that teaching is the worst of all teachings, because it prevents change/renewal/growth/repentance/hope.
Can we agree there?
Re: The Ultimate Attitude Adjustment
Agricola makes a lot of sense. Thinking about people who go out to volunteer in some manner or take their kids to volunteer (like at a soup kitchen or something like that). They or the kids may go into it without having the attitude of helping others, but after being there and doing it, they gain that attitude. I've heard of that happening a lot, especially with kids (being drug down to help and then they develop a giving attitude). Very interesting thought!
Re: The Ultimate Attitude Adjustment
OK Well like everybody else here (pretty much) I grew up coc.
And the coc talked (endlessly) about love one another, and the widow's mite, and every other wonderful and gracious idea in the gospels - and never followed through with any of it.
Attitude? To hear them talk, they were full of wonderful attitudes.
To be there, though - like, silence.
The only 'needy' they ever assisted were members of their congregation. They thought 'outreach' was paying to support a missionary, far far away. How was the missionary helping 'the poor' (usually somewhere in the middle of Africa)? He was preaching the gospel and handing out Bibles. Feeding hungry people? nope, only 'the Word'. Housing anybody? No way. Healing the sick? Nah, too much trouble.
And those 'needy'? First of course, they had to prove they were really needy, and then they'd get some secondhand stuff.
Did anybody at the coc help out at a soup kitchen? a food bank? No, or if they did, they sure didn't mention it. Those things weren't run by the coc.
They certainly talked about doing. They just never seemed to do any of it.
And the coc talked (endlessly) about love one another, and the widow's mite, and every other wonderful and gracious idea in the gospels - and never followed through with any of it.
Attitude? To hear them talk, they were full of wonderful attitudes.
To be there, though - like, silence.
The only 'needy' they ever assisted were members of their congregation. They thought 'outreach' was paying to support a missionary, far far away. How was the missionary helping 'the poor' (usually somewhere in the middle of Africa)? He was preaching the gospel and handing out Bibles. Feeding hungry people? nope, only 'the Word'. Housing anybody? No way. Healing the sick? Nah, too much trouble.
And those 'needy'? First of course, they had to prove they were really needy, and then they'd get some secondhand stuff.
Did anybody at the coc help out at a soup kitchen? a food bank? No, or if they did, they sure didn't mention it. Those things weren't run by the coc.
They certainly talked about doing. They just never seemed to do any of it.
History is the fiction we invent to persuade ourselves that events are knowable and that life has order and direction. That's why events are always reinterpreted when values change. We need new versions of history to allow for our current prejudices.
Re: The Ultimate Attitude Adjustment
They had a lot to gripe about the Catholics....but the Catholics minister directly to the poor just about everywhere.....no comparison...agricola wrote:OK Well like everybody else here (pretty much) I grew up coc.
And the coc talked (endlessly) about love one another, and the widow's mite, and every other wonderful and gracious idea in the gospels - and never followed through with any of it.
Attitude? To hear them talk, they were full of wonderful attitudes.
To be there, though - like, silence.
The only 'needy' they ever assisted were members of their congregation. They thought 'outreach' was paying to support a missionary, far far away. How was the missionary helping 'the poor' (usually somewhere in the middle of Africa)? He was preaching the gospel and handing out Bibles. Feeding hungry people? nope, only 'the Word'. Housing anybody? No way. Healing the sick? Nah, too much trouble.
And those 'needy'? First of course, they had to prove they were really needy, and then they'd get some secondhand stuff.
Did anybody at the coc help out at a soup kitchen? a food bank? No, or if they did, they sure didn't mention it. Those things weren't run by the coc.
They certainly talked about doing. They just never seemed to do any of it.
Re: The Ultimate Attitude Adjustment
Islam has the same principle that Judaism has. We are told in the Quran to be willing to help others,to always pursue justice and what is right. We are told we should love our brothers and sisters in the faith. There is a verse in the Quran that says you are to be just even to those yoy hate (not supposed to hate but if it happens still be just by them).
edited post to follow rules*
edited post to follow rules*
Last edited by B.H. on Sun Jan 21, 2018 6:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The philosophers have only interpreted the world, in various ways; the point is to change it.----Karl Marx
Re: The Ultimate Attitude Adjustment
BH,B.H. wrote:Islam has the same principle that Judaism has. We are told in the Quran to be willing to help others,to always pursue justice and what is right. We are told we should love our brothers and sisters in the faith. There is a verse in the Quran that says you are to be just even to those yoy hate (not supposed to hate but if it happens still be just by them).
I do not understand why Christians think they have a better deal. Both the Jewish scriptures and Quran have a lot more to say about social policy and giving protection to the weak and poor, workers, women, ect as rights than anything I find in the supposed New Testament.
I imagine I am quite a bit older than you, but I would simply say that everybody's scriptures are great....the problem is the "everybody" who tries to adapt those scriptures to their lives and the world around them....resulting in horrific extremes in all faiths....and from the same exact scriptures....hence why it becomes difficult to make the generalizations you have made here.
Even in Christianity there is the social strand....emphasizing the actual life work of Christ in serving the poor, the sick, etc. as being necessarily part an parcel of the society we live in, i.e., as part of government policy, etc....sort of a "social morality". So Christianity is not just bereft w/r to social policy....
So I don't think Christians necessarily think they have a better deal....like everyone else, they are a product of how they were raised, i.e., their tradition...everyone in whatever faith, whoever they are, may think they have a "better deal"...but many do not and are more ecumenical and tolerant-based, attempting to bridge connections with one another from one faith to another....and I think that trend is growing....with the CofC left in the rear-view mirror, of course....
Re: The Ultimate Attitude Adjustment
I am sorry but I forgot where I was on the board. I am sorry i broke a rule
The philosophers have only interpreted the world, in various ways; the point is to change it.----Karl Marx