Ex-Church of Christ Support Board

In the CofC, salvation is predicated (mindset) on a complete act (or acts) of man...through his "coming to his own senses"....through grasping himself the communication from the NT....all in order....all completed sequentially....and fully understood and incorporated into the intellect...then bingo, the satisfaction of the "accomplishment"...THEN the Holy Spirit comes somehow after a water baptism....which basically puts the HS as a reward for being a really smart humanist in coming to God...

What is left out in this scenario is God's work....God's hand in working through one's life, one's circumstances, through His Holy Spirit to bring one to faith....

So, in our salvation, who gets the credit?? In the CofC, YOU do...for "getting it"........As I see it, I give God all the glory for my salvation and I take no credit for it, for it truly was a work of his....and that's why you can't stop being eternally grateful....because you and He came together, you were reconciled, IN SPITE of yourself.....that's why we can shout "Hallelujah"....but of course, not in the CofC....

SolaDude wrote:...What is left out in this scenario is God's work....God's hand in working through one's life, one's circumstances, through His Holy Spirit to bring one to faith....

That sound great. Do you think that was happening in the first century during Apostolic times? Are you thinking there are examples in scripture of this happening and the CofC just chooses to ignore those examples? I mean I believe that God is in control and that faith comes of hearing and they can't hear unless someone is sent to tell them and Paul was told in a dream where and when to go. Is that the sort of way you are thinking God works to bring people to faith?

KLP wrote:

SolaDude wrote:...What is left out in this scenario is God's work....God's hand in working through one's life, one's circumstances, through His Holy Spirit to bring one to faith....

That sound great. Do you think that was happening in the first century during Apostolic times? Are you thinking there are examples in scripture of this happening and the CofC just chooses to ignore those examples? I mean I believe that God is in control and that faith comes of hearing and they can't hear unless someone is sent to tell them and Paul was told in a dream where and when to go. Is that the sort of way you are thinking God works to bring people to faith?

I'm not sure if I'm understanding your question here, KLP, I'm sorry (especially after you said "That sound's great")....can you expand a little more??

I personally have never been to a CofC that would ever acknowledge that God brings one to faith (and would be shocked to hear that such is taught now), especially via the Holy Spirit, primarily due to the fact that my perception is that the Holy Spirit is not believed to be involved at all in the salvational process and is not even acknowledged to be "received" until the water baptism....

The more I hear myself talk, the more I think I sound like a Calvinist. I know I'm not, but it makes me cringe every time

SolaDude wrote:

KLP wrote:

SolaDude wrote:...What is left out in this scenario is God's work....God's hand in working through one's life, one's circumstances, through His Holy Spirit to bring one to faith....

That sound great. Do you think that was happening in the first century during Apostolic times? Are you thinking there are examples in scripture of this happening and the CofC just chooses to ignore those examples? I mean I believe that God is in control and that faith comes of hearing and they can't hear unless someone is sent to tell them and Paul was told in a dream where and when to go. Is that the sort of way you are thinking God works to bring people to faith?

I'm not sure if I'm understanding your question here, KLP, I'm sorry (especially after you said "That sound's great")....can you expand a little more??

I personally have never been to a CofC that would ever acknowledge that God brings one to faith (and would be shocked to hear that such is taught now), especially via the Holy Spirit, primarily due to the fact that my perception is that the Holy Spirit is not believed to be involved at all in the salvational process and is not even acknowledged to be "received" until the water baptism....

It sounds great that God is actively and responsible to create this faith in the individual. I am asking do you think it was happening in the Apostles time and if they wrote about. And I pointed out a possible example of where God communicated to Paul in dream on where to go preach. Can you expand a bit more on your assertion about how the Holy Spirit brings people to faith through circumstances of each individual?

KLP wrote:It sounds great that God is actively and responsible to create this faith in the individual. I am asking do you think it was happening in the Apostles time and if they wrote about. And I pointed out a possible example of where God communicated to Paul in dream on where to go preach. Can you expand a bit more on your assertion about how the Holy Spirit brings people to faith through circumstances of each individual?

Okay...think I've got it now....The Lord communicated with Saul long before he was a preacher or even saved....Actually, according to CofC teaching nowadays, whereby a true apostle is defined as someone who was with Christ when he was here on earth AND the HS is considered to have absented itself somehow from mankind after the last apostle died, then Paul would not even have been accepted as an apostle since he came on the scene many years after the Lord rose....in other words, IMO Paul would have been seen by the CofC as apostate at the time he arrived on the scene....especially when telling people, after the Lord had already risen, that he saw a vision of the Lord, the Lord/HS spoke to him, etc. and that therefore they should consider him to be a member of the apostle club, too....

My remark on the HS bringing people to faith involves the spiritual work of God in everyone's life....in the inner being of man, working in drawing people to Him....just giving a spiritual concept beyond a mere intellectual meeting of the minds with God as seems to be the position of the CofC IMO...that there is more involved in our lives, i.e., God working his will through all of our lives in ways we could never perceive through our intellect....and His working continues on in the context of our relationship with him after we come to faith in HIm, throughout the rest of our lives....

SolaDude wrote:

KLP wrote:It sounds great that God is actively and responsible to create this faith in the individual. I am asking do you think it was happening in the Apostles time and if they wrote about. And I pointed out a possible example of where God communicated to Paul in dream on where to go preach. Can you expand a bit more on your assertion about how the Holy Spirit brings people to faith through circumstances of each individual?

Okay...think I've got it now....The Lord communicated with Saul long before he was a preacher or even saved....Actually, according to CofC teaching nowadays, whereby a true apostle is defined as someone who was with Christ when he was here on earth AND the HS is considered to have absented itself somehow from mankind after the last apostle died, then Paul would not even have been accepted as an apostle since he came on the scene many years after the Lord rose....in other words, IMO Paul would have been seen by the CofC as apostate at the time he arrived on the scene....especially when telling people, after the Lord had already risen, that he saw a vision of the Lord, the Lord/HS spoke to him, etc. and that therefore they should consider him to be a member of the apostle club, too....

My remark on the HS bringing people to faith involves the spiritual work of God in everyone's life....in the inner being of man, working in drawing people to Him....just giving a spiritual concept beyond a mere intellectual meeting of the minds with God as seems to be the position of the CofC IMO...that there is more involved in our lives, i.e., God working his will through all of our lives in ways we could never perceive through our intellect....and His working continues on in the context of our relationship with him after we come to faith in HIm, throughout the rest of our lives....

Again...I am pretty sure I understand your concept and think it is great. I was asking for where you thought such a concept was referred to by the Apostles. Your reference is where the Lord directly spoke to Saul from Heaven, blinded him with light, and sent someone directly to him to be baptized. That doesn't sound exactly God working in ways that can not be perceived by intellect. Yes, Paul's reputation as a persecutor of Christians would lead congregations to give him the stink-eye...but working a miracle or two seemed to put them at ease. Again, not exactly something that would not be perceived by the intellect. And when Paul goes up to Jerusalem to explain his ministry he describes all the events that happened....and that too would be understood by the intellect it seems. Just as when Peter describes how Gentiles were to be accepted...He had a direct vision, witnessed the miracles, and described all these things to others. Seems it was always an address to the intellect and not very subtle.

But that is just my opinion, I am was just trying to find a reference in the epistles to this ubiquitous spiritual concept of God working in everyone's life in a non-intellectual way to develop faith in each person.

It seems to me that if we could not perceive the working in our lives and things just somehow work out that would not be a benefit to me if I couldn't get my mind around what was happening. What if my perception of events or feelings concluded it was the work of Marduk?

I understand your problems with CoC concept of the work of the HS, I had difficulty reconciling the contradictions that abound when trying to explain certain concepts. In my estimation, I knew the HS was working because of some of the statements given in the NT but in defined ways and not subject to my own wishes.

Saint Paisios, cautioned people when faced with visions or perceptions that people were eager to attribute to God. His view was that anything outside of Christ could very well be from the devil and that it was prudent or safe to focus on Christ and the knowledge of him so as to prevent a possible delusion.

To KLP's point I have understood that Christ invites but rest is given to those that come. Could it be that the HS is inviting today? Is that close to what your concept is in regards to the HS? I agree the HS is active today, not just active twiddling his thumbs in heaven, but to specifics- that would be hard to say without more reference to evidence which is what I think KLP is asking about. Just asking.

KLP wrote:Again...I am pretty sure I understand your concept and think it is great. I was asking for where you thought such a concept was referred to by the Apostles. Your reference is where the Lord directly spoke to Saul from Heaven, blinded him with light, and sent someone directly to him to be baptized. That doesn't sound exactly God working in ways that can not be perceived by intellect. Yes, Paul's reputation as a persecutor of Christians would lead congregations to give him the stink-eye...but working a miracle or two seemed to put them at ease. Again, not exactly something that would not be perceived by the intellect. And when Paul goes up to Jerusalem to explain his ministry he describes all the events that happened....and that too would be understood by the intellect it seems. Just as when Peter describes how Gentiles were to be accepted...He had a direct vision, witnessed the miracles, and described all these things to others. Seems it was always an address to the intellect and not very subtle.

But that is just my opinion, I am was just trying to find a reference in the epistles to this ubiquitous spiritual concept of God working in everyone's life in a non-intellectual way to develop faith in each person.

Well, KLP, I see that you say you are "pretty sure" you understand my concept, but clearly you do not. Furthermore, I continue to be confused by your comment that you "think it is great" when your supporting narrative again seems to betray that sentiment....

Anyway, I would first say that the work of the HS doesn't negate any ability to intellectually function. What I am merely saying is that the HS is at work in us in depths far below our intellects and in our beings to move our wills in God's direction....it's not an either or proposition, that is, I'm not saying that only the HS brings one to faith without any function of the intellect. But by the same token, it is something (a phenomenon, mystery, etc.) not articulable by the intellect because it works apart from it. Is that clearer?

Looking at Paul intellectually, there probably has been no one in history with a more intellectually rejecting view of God than his....yet it was the power of God that defeated that intellect through a miraculous act of the Holy Spirit working in his inner being far below his intellect, and in the final analysis, overcoming his intellectual mindset, changing it. In other words, it wasn't like God came to him and said, Saul, let's reason together...now, here's the five steps and I really want you to come to your senses and review these one more time with me.......Do you see where I'm coming from, KLP? In other words, when one has chosen to reject God, God can overcome that rejection if He so chooses....

Also, I would say that of all the apostles it was Paul who recognized the working of the Spirit the most and one can tell this by reading his narratives related to the Holy Spirit....and most notable is his statement that no one can even say Jesus is Lord but by the Holy Spirit....which of course directly contradicts the perspective in the CofC that a confession is made absent the Holy Spirit since the Holy Spirit doesn't work in bringing one to faith, but rather is seen as a gifted reward after a water baptism. (As a side note, it is interesting that a confession in the CofC does not include that Jesus is Lord, but rather only addresses the notion of Jesus being the Son of God...that is perhaps a topic for another thread!)

Yes Gordo...I don't want to throw the baby out with the baptistery water. The idea that CofC is whack in regards some things doesn't negate the actual narrative and epistles. It seems the purpose of the miracles was to confirm the teaching...which sounds to me as addressing the intellect.. And John was the most mystical/feeling of the writers and even he was saying that he writes these things so that ye may know that you have life eternal. My concern is that if there is an approach being made to the individual on a non-cognitive basis then is the individual making any deliberate and willing assent?

A topic close to this is often on Catholic Answers when they talk about hypnosis and acupuncture for say diet or smoking cessation. There is an expressed concern for the individual to be in control of their mind...much like drunkenness is a loss of control over ones mind. So I am just thinking through this and what it means the HS is approaching and working on a level that does not address the intellect of an individual.