Ex-Church of Christ Support Board

While no one can fault singing praise. Why would anyone fault praising while playing? The Lord said to do all things in word or deed in his name. Think without prejudice. Does this not say that we can play a song in his name? Why would a Christian say that the only way to praise or worship God is to sing a hymn without accompanying it in anyway? Singing is not the only way we worship God. We can pray, go up into a mountain as Jesus did the Mt of Olives, lift up our hands, call on the name of the lord, give thanks on a continual basis for every blessing, kneeling, whistling, humming, playing instruments, merely thinking the words in our heads, even dancing in jubilation or sorrow, bowing, clapping in agreement and support of righteousness, shouting and certainly playing songs with melodies that call to mind the words of praise and worship. Choosing to worship by acapella singing is certainly any Christians right to choose. The problem comes when other Christians are refused the right hand of fellowship because they choose to accompany their singing with instruments. Why would God command instrumental music? Can someone provide an instrument every time they want to worship? Why would God do that, yet that is what the COC is demanding. How will God react to a CoC person that refuses to worship with a fellow Christian just because they choose to play while singing. What if God says on judgement day, I never told you to sing exclusively, I only encouraged you to sing. What if God says why did you not fellowship your brethren? Do we have the right to bind that which is not bound and reject other Christians by it? Remember, there is no worship service described in the NT. It is said they met in homes, not buildings. There is no example of Sunday services. There is no description of a service. Is this a command that excludes thinking about a hymn without vocalizing it? Do we have to vocalize a hymn for it to be acceptable? Do we have to pray out load for it to be acceptable? The same argument could be made to force vocalization. What about amplifying the song leader, is the amplifier technically an instrument or not? What about humming, clapping, tapping moving in any way? Where did the stuff about there can be a song leader but not a chorus come from? Nor is the encouragement to sing confined to the Sunday service. It was a general encouragement to sing praise to God. And that's all that should be made of that, nothing more. We are to sing psalms, hymns and spiritual songs. A psalm is inherently written to be sung while accompanied by an instrument. In many bibles the type of instrument is mentioned in the Psalms chapter heading.
The phrase “can’t see the forest for the trees” is so true in regards to so many in the non-instrumental COC. They claim speaking where the Bible speaks and being silent where the Bible is silent. They put so much emphasis on “acapella” but this word is not in the Bible. What they actually do is equate the word singing with acapella. They have added to the Bible. The word acapella specifically excludes instruments and is not found in the Bible.
I could go on and on, but please take what I say in the spirit of examining the scriptures as we are encouraged to do.

Hi warren.

I doubt anyone here would disagree with you on the instrumental music thing and the cofc. But remember, we are all ex-cofc, not current cofc, so most here will simply have no concern or ax to grind about the issue.

There are instrumental c of C’s, but they are admittedly limited in number so their accessibility may be an issue. And, of course, their members aren’t real Christians.

That is a great opening post and brings out some points I had not considered. thank you

I agree it is a weak point to choose as the basis of division. That being said, there probably are no two groups where music alone is the dividing point. I don't have a problem with instruments but I just wasn't raised that way, so it doesn't hold any memories or good emotions. And so I tend to not like a big rock band and the loud places, I kind of just like a quiet little place with little to no show. Hard to find such a place.

I like your post Warren. There are only two verses in the New Testament that talk about music. While neither one talks about instruments directly both talk about singing psalms, hymns and spiritual songs. Many Psalms were written for instruments and some even mention them. I like Psalm 150 KJV:

150 Praise ye the Lord. Praise God in his sanctuary: praise him in the firmament of his power.

2 Praise him for his mighty acts: praise him according to his excellent greatness.

3 Praise him with the sound of the trumpet: praise him with the psaltery and harp.

4 Praise him with the timbrel and dance: praise him with stringed instruments and organs.

5 Praise him upon the loud cymbals: praise him upon the high sounding cymbals.

6 Let every thing that hath breath praise the Lord. Praise ye the Lord.

warrenwhis wrote:What if God says on judgement day, I never told you to sing exclusively, I only encouraged you to sing.

Teachers in Churches of Christ use their (un-scriptural) rules about "CENI" (command, example, and necessary inference) in order to say that the "silence of the scriptures" amounts to prohibition. But as you've pointed out, they throw this "silence" argument out on other occasions. In particular, only a few CoC congregations argue against serving the Lord's Supper a second time on Sunday night. Only a few argue against having bible classes.

So another way of asking your question would be to ask "if there are musicians, but the congregation is still singing, how have we violated the command to sing?" The obvious answer is that we haven't.

It's silly for me to get involved in these discussions, really -- I'm no longer a believer at all! It's just that I'm a closet atheist still attending a Non-Institutional CoC and these issues irritate me. On the other hand, the fact that the sermons are more "lectures" than anything else appeals to me as an atheist. If I could just go and listen to the sermon, and they'd dispense with the singing altogether, I'd be happier. The emotion that music brings into the assembly is the most manipulative part of religion.

Lerk wrote:

warrenwhis wrote:What if God says on judgement day, I never told you to sing exclusively, I only encouraged you to sing.

Teachers in Churches of Christ use their (un-scriptural) rules about "CENI" (command, example, and necessary inference) in order to say that the "silence of the scriptures" amounts to prohibition. But as you've pointed out, they throw this "silence" argument out on other occasions. In particular, only a few CoC congregations argue against serving the Lord's Supper a second time on Sunday night. Only a few argue against having bible classes.

So another way of asking your question would be to ask "if there are musicians, but the congregation is still singing, how have we violated the command to sing?" The obvious answer is that we haven't.

It's silly for me to get involved in these discussions, really -- I'm no longer a believer at all! It's just that I'm a closet atheist still attending a Non-Institutional CoC and these issues irritate me. On the other hand, the fact that the sermons are more "lectures" than anything else appeals to me as an atheist. If I could just go and listen to the sermon, and they'd dispense with the singing altogether, I'd be happier. The emotion that music brings into the assembly is the most manipulative part of religion.

CENI is an excuse to add to the Bible. There are other things used like tradition. The Jewish world used seats of Moses to add oral law to the Torah. This is why Jesus argued with the Pharisees. He did agree that there was a ressurrection which the Saducees did not. The Sadducees died with the destruction of the temple in 70 CE. Seats of Moses have been found in excavations. They are carved stone and very ornate. Today I do not know if they still exist. The written Law is the Torah. The added law is in the Talmuds and tradition. I am aware of two. The Jerusalem Talmud and the Babylonian Talmud. There may be others. The Babylonian Talmud is quite large. There is some History there. They are available at Christian book. They may be Hebrew. The ones mentioned are on CD rom. I do not know why you attend. I got exactly nothing worthwhile out of the CoC. I got more out of athiests. I get more out of Christians today. They go to many different Churches. Group think is a very poor way to learn anything.

https://www.christianbook.com/apps/easy ... Ntt=talmud

Matthew 23 kjv
1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,

2 Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:

3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
******************
He goes on condemning them. Read the whole chapter 23 to get it.

I actually had a CofC guy tell me, after I pointed out John hearing musical instruments playing in his visions in the book of Revelation, that musical instruments were approved by God during Old Testament times, then forbidden by God during the church age, but will be approved again by God in heaven. Go figure. I guess God also must have forbidden intelligence during the church age, at least in the CofC.

One's voice is as much an instrument as any other musical instrument. Both are made of carbon atoms. The voice is played by intentionally moving the musculature around the vocal chords, just like one would move the muscles in his hand to play a trumpet. Oy vay. The implementation of the voice or instruments in generating a song is a shadow of the perfected spiritual song that will be experienced in a realm not like this one that we live in. I think Paul mentioned "spiritual songs" anyway. A true song is spiritual in its origin. Deaf and dumb people can still sing for goodness sake.

SolaDude wrote:I actually had a CofC guy tell me, after I pointed out John hearing musical instruments playing in his visions in the book of Revelation, that musical instruments were approved by God during Old Testament times, then forbidden by God during the church age, but will be approved again by God in heaven. Go figure. I guess God also must have forbidden intelligence during the church age.

One's voice is as much an instrument as any other musical instruments. Both are made of carbon atoms. The voice is played by intentionally moving the musculature around the vocal chords, just like one would move the muscles in his hand to play a trumpet. Oy vay.

They try to make things work with Bible. They strain at a gnat and swallow a camel. I am not into Christian rock. Most larger churches have both classic and contemporary services. The sermon is on large screen. It is also available on the web. In the days of Covid Church is at home. You definitely would not want to be one cup in this timeframe. The verse in Revelation 5:8 kjv

8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
*******
The Lamb is Jesus. The elders are First Fruits of the Ressurection delivered to heaven by Jesus. Mary Magdalene was told "Do not touch me, for I have not assended to Heaven." She would have defiled him. It is found in
John 20:17 kjv
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

ena wrote:In the days of Covid Church is at home. You definitely would not want to be one cup in this timeframe.

Watch out, ena, your're stepping on the toes of all those evangelicals who think you're taking away their religious freedom!