Ex-Church of Christ Support Board

I have been to several NICOC funerals lately and have been most pleasantly surprised. There has been no preaching people in the audience to hell. None at all!! They have been very appropriate and geared only to positive memories of the deceased and the comforting of the family and friends, even when there are diverse non-cofc people in the audience. What do y'all think; could they finally be "getting" that you can't bring anyone in by insulting, demeaning, violating emotional boundaries, and trying to scare the hell out of them?

Maybe, a tentative maybe.

I was at one last year and noticed the same thing. However, when the preacher had his turn there was some mention of "the plan" and the deceased's desire for everyone to find salvation with the implication being her brand. But it was not mean or turn before you burn preaching, just low key.

I think the younger folk have strong opinions and hold on to the hardcore doctrine but have realized the detrimental effects of really going old school on people outside "the" church. My wife's cousin, who is still very much NICOC, has expressed the idea of the past being so rigid and dogmatic that in her experience many have left and may not have left if people had been more understanding. There may be a softening going on but, I wouldn't hold my breath because I am familiar with those younger than myself that display all the signs of not softening a bit.

Maybe it is not so public as it use to be but I am sure, if we were to step inside the friendly confines of the building it would be just like we remember.

Of course, some believe evolution took billions of years so maybe the NICOC will fully evolve in few million years or so.

You make some good points, gordie. But at least it shows a little growth that they know not to talk about that stuff to the general community during a time when they should be comforting them. But yeah....evolution takes more time that they likely have to get things right.

Edited to add: But lest we forget...if it evolves much, it will no longer be an NICOC; it will be something else.

I would guess the NI churches have different factions, like the mainstream ones.

But lest we forget...if it evolves much, it will no longer be an NICOC; it will be something else.

That is so very true but when I think about it, it only applies to the immediate moment. When people talk about their beliefs and practices today. Like talking to my sibling or my wife's cousin, aged middle forties to early fifties, there is a change of tone. The tone is different when in a public setting such as bible class or a sizable group. They have talked to me about how hard line positions have or should change but I think in the more public settings the tone may soften but the principle is the same. Does that make sense?

One point I made during and after my departure is there is a reason people outside the CoC accuse them of being the only ones that are going to heaven. Regardless of what my family thinks, there is something that makes outsiders have that opinion of the CoC. Yet, my brother can be eloquent and convincing about not thinking that when speaking to me but somehow I just don't think any serious discussion he may have with other denominations or liberal CoC folk would not end up leaving them with the thought that he is the only one going to heaven. The problem, in my opinion, is the high regard they have for their own methods of interpretation and the resulting doctrine. The NiCoC, tend to view all questions as true/false, mental assent to a philosophical question and so in order to interpret the bible correctly they spend a lot of time proof texting the proof texts which supports their main position - we have figured it out and are the only ones that have most completely and correctly done so.

So if, I disagree, now it is just "well, I don't see it that way" or "I understand where you are coming from but ..." and they end discussions because they do not want to understand they want to influence and I am beneath and beyond those things now that I am gone from the fold.

The doctrine will not evolve, the outward tone has somewhat. So, maybe that will be something else but once in the building or at home no changes. Did I ramble too much?

Struggler wrote:I would guess the NI churches have different factions, like the mainstream ones.

I thought you were NICOC.

NICOC is a faction unto itself. They do subdivide into some petty differences at times, but generally nothing that's a "salvation issue" to them.

I've always wondered what a conversation between Anton Levay and a NIcoc preacher would have looked like when Levey found out the preacher thought it sinful to support an orphan home or old folks home.

BH, I don't know who Anton Levay is, but the NICOC preacher of the day (1950s - 1960s) would have argued that cofc people should support orphans individually and not from the church coffers and perhaps not even to an orphanage, since there was no CENI for that either. Perhaps the preacher would also say that cofc people should be taking the orphans into their homes, rather than farming them out to an orphanage, so there's also that. There was no CENI for a church sponsored orphanage to even exist, just like there was no CENI for church sponsored colleges.

As a child, I remember rarely visiting churches (when we were out of town) where they routinely collected pantry items for the church of christ sponsored children's homes. By the time I was forming memories, my parents had already moved to an NICOC that was against that as an unscriptural work for the church to be involved in, and a feature of the "social gospel".

All of that seems trivial now, but it was a huge deal to them back then.

BH, as I was kind of researching this topic, specifically the topic of "patternism", I found this great article by Edward Fudge. You might be interested; it helps to give some insight into the mindset of the cofc about "innovations" and the pattern for the church they thought they saw in the bible:

h**ps://edwardfudge.com/2012/02/the-plague-of-patternism/

Edited to add: OK, BH. Good one. I googled Anton Levay. Disregard everything I just said; I get your point.

Ivy wrote:As a child, I remember rarely visiting churches (when we were out of town) where they routinely collected pantry items for the church of christ sponsored children's homes. By the time I was forming memories, my parents had already moved to an NICOC that was against that as an unscriptural work for the church to be involved in, and a feature of the "social gospel".

All of that seems trivial now, but it was a huge deal to them back then.

We just took a trip, and before leaving were talking to a couple at church (NICoC) who had been to the same place recently. They were talking about the church they went to, and it was something I've heard many times before: "We found a CoC and everything seemed 'normal' at first, but toward the end they were talking about an orphan's home they support."

The way they talk, I was surprised they hadn't bothered to find the only NICoC in that city before they left. I guess they aren't good at using the internet for things like that.

My wife posted a pic on Facebook of the little church (building!) we went to on the trip (but didn't say the name of the congregation, lest her sister realize it was a mainline church), and she commented on this "small group of Christians" we met with. Of course, "Christians" is CoC-speak for "members of the Church of Christ". Her sister commented how wonderful it is to find people "serving the Lord" in different places, as if that's a rare and unusual thing.

A few months ago a long-time friend died, and my sister-in-law commented on the online memorial about how she had met this woman in college and how excited they were to discover that they were both Christians. As if anybody she knew at that college in the late 1970s wasn't a Christian! Of course, we know the coded language. I just wonder what non-CoC members took her to mean when they read her comments. Did it go right over their heads? Did they think she just meant they were both equally devoted? I doubt they would catch the coded meaning.

EDIT to say: I don't mean to disparage my sister-in-law. She's a very kind person and would do anything to help people. She and her husband (who is an elder) have helped a lot of people. They're the kind of people who over-commit themselves, just won't say "no", and who take on responsibilities that other people could be doing but aren't. They'll never leave the small town they live in because they feel like they'd be abandoning the congregation, even though they'd be better off moving closer to one of their children. The negatives I mention above are the result of having been raised inside that NI-CoC bubble and never having looked beyond it. NI-CoC people still do "convert" people to their religion because the stream of "logic" involved in their "plan of salvation" teaching is hard to argue with. It isn't that hard for them to convince someone who is, say, a Baptist, that they were "baptized wrong." And if you've been on the inside since the day you were born, it's hard to see the flaws in that so-called logic. CoC doctrine has only been around for 150 years or so, but it evolved very rapidly to insulate itself from the outside and to be able to keep its members fully entrenched.

Lerk wrote:she commented on this "small group of Christians" we met with. Of course, "Christians" is CoC-speak for "members of the Church of Christ". Her sister commented how wonderful it is to find people "serving the Lord" in different places, as if that's a rare and unusual thing.

And more often than not, it's going to be the NICOC using that particular codespeak. Because doncha know the NICOC are the only christians and the only people "serving the Lord".