Similarities/Differences in CoC and Primitive Baptists
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longdistancerunner
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Similarities/Differences in CoC and Primitive Baptists
Similarities in the CoC and the Primitive Baptist Church (also referred to as foot washing and hardshell baptists) intrigue me. I have found very little good historical summaries of the Primitive Baptist Church. They are very common in very rural areas of the South. I drove along a road that paralells the Natchez Trace in Tennessee south of Nashville and there were tons of them). They are pretty uncommon in cities but I did see one yesterday. They have many of the same practices as the CoC; no instrumental music, simple services etc, do not believe in a central governing organization, and are extremely conservative. The major difference seems to be their belief in predestination, whose theology is very difficult to grasp. I was wondering if others have any experience/knowledge of these? I believe they also still take anti missionary positions.
Re: Similarities/Differences in CoC and Primitive Baptists
A lot of them don't use Sunday school either
The philosophers have only interpreted the world, in various ways; the point is to change it.----Karl Marx
Re: Similarities/Differences in CoC and Primitive Baptists
I know very little. I know my grandmother was one, but I don't know how 'serious' she was about it.
My mother, her daughter, joined the CoC as a mid-teen or late teen, because (she said) it was a CoC woman who was kind to her and gave her something, like a toothbrush.
This is just something I remember, and when I look back, it seems so weirdly unlikely that it might actually be true. My mother was the middle kid of nine or ten, and the Depression hit the family VERY hard, starting before she was five. But still - a toothbrush? They weren't THAT poor.
Still - she got bribed into a lifelong fanatic CoC membership with a toothbrush? Get real.
I'm fairly sure that Primitive Baptists brush their teeth.
Mom's father, my grandfather's husband was one of those common rural Tennesseans who never join ANYTHING, but if you had to pin them down on what they THINK, they'd probably fall into some variety of Baptist ideas.
That's easy, because there are like 400 kinds of Baptists, something for everybody.
The tiny town they lived in was mostly CoC and Baptists - even now (I just checked - you have to drive 5 miles to find ANYTHING other than Baptists or a CoC, and Baptists are the clear majority).
There's a Presbyterian church in Milton. In the 1930s, that would be a good distance away, given that there were numerous other churches right in town (one CoC and about five or six Baptist churches).
Man, the South is religiously weird, sometimes.
My mother, her daughter, joined the CoC as a mid-teen or late teen, because (she said) it was a CoC woman who was kind to her and gave her something, like a toothbrush.
This is just something I remember, and when I look back, it seems so weirdly unlikely that it might actually be true. My mother was the middle kid of nine or ten, and the Depression hit the family VERY hard, starting before she was five. But still - a toothbrush? They weren't THAT poor.
Still - she got bribed into a lifelong fanatic CoC membership with a toothbrush? Get real.
I'm fairly sure that Primitive Baptists brush their teeth.
Mom's father, my grandfather's husband was one of those common rural Tennesseans who never join ANYTHING, but if you had to pin them down on what they THINK, they'd probably fall into some variety of Baptist ideas.
That's easy, because there are like 400 kinds of Baptists, something for everybody.
The tiny town they lived in was mostly CoC and Baptists - even now (I just checked - you have to drive 5 miles to find ANYTHING other than Baptists or a CoC, and Baptists are the clear majority).
There's a Presbyterian church in Milton. In the 1930s, that would be a good distance away, given that there were numerous other churches right in town (one CoC and about five or six Baptist churches).
Man, the South is religiously weird, sometimes.
History is the fiction we invent to persuade ourselves that events are knowable and that life has order and direction. That's why events are always reinterpreted when values change. We need new versions of history to allow for our current prejudices.
Re: Similarities/Differences in CoC and Primitive Baptists
From Wikipedia -
Primitive Baptists – also known as Hard Shell Baptists, Foot Washing Baptists or Old School Baptists – are conservative Baptists adhering to a degree of Calvinist beliefs who coalesced out of the controversy among Baptists in the early 19th century over the appropriateness of mission boards, tract societies, and temperance societies.[2][3] Primitive Baptists are a subset of the Calvinistic Baptist tradition.[1] The adjective "primitive" in the name is used in the sense of "original".[2]
They had their 'Mainstream/Non-Institutional split' a LOT earlier than the CoC -
Upon examination, it was found that most of the churches had given their opinions; and after an interchange of sentiments among the members of this body, it was agreed that we discard all Missionary Societies, Bible Societies and Theological Seminaries, and the practices heretofore resorted to for their support, in begging money from the public; and if any persons should be among us, as agents of any of said societies, we hereafter discountenance them in those practices; and if under a character of a minister of the gospel, we will not invite them into our pulpits; believing these societies and institutions to be the inventions of men, and not warranted from the word of God. We further do unanimously agree that should any of the members of our churches join the fraternity of Masons, or, being members, continue to visit the lodges and parades, we will not invite them to preach in our pulpits, believing them to be guilty of such practices; and we declare non-fellowship with them and such practices altogether.[5]
The official split between "Old School" and "New School" Baptists occurred during a meeting at the Black Rock Church on September 28, 1832 in Butler, MD. This became known as the Black Rock Address.
Primitive Baptists – also known as Hard Shell Baptists, Foot Washing Baptists or Old School Baptists – are conservative Baptists adhering to a degree of Calvinist beliefs who coalesced out of the controversy among Baptists in the early 19th century over the appropriateness of mission boards, tract societies, and temperance societies.[2][3] Primitive Baptists are a subset of the Calvinistic Baptist tradition.[1] The adjective "primitive" in the name is used in the sense of "original".[2]
They had their 'Mainstream/Non-Institutional split' a LOT earlier than the CoC -
Upon examination, it was found that most of the churches had given their opinions; and after an interchange of sentiments among the members of this body, it was agreed that we discard all Missionary Societies, Bible Societies and Theological Seminaries, and the practices heretofore resorted to for their support, in begging money from the public; and if any persons should be among us, as agents of any of said societies, we hereafter discountenance them in those practices; and if under a character of a minister of the gospel, we will not invite them into our pulpits; believing these societies and institutions to be the inventions of men, and not warranted from the word of God. We further do unanimously agree that should any of the members of our churches join the fraternity of Masons, or, being members, continue to visit the lodges and parades, we will not invite them to preach in our pulpits, believing them to be guilty of such practices; and we declare non-fellowship with them and such practices altogether.[5]
The official split between "Old School" and "New School" Baptists occurred during a meeting at the Black Rock Church on September 28, 1832 in Butler, MD. This became known as the Black Rock Address.
History is the fiction we invent to persuade ourselves that events are knowable and that life has order and direction. That's why events are always reinterpreted when values change. We need new versions of history to allow for our current prejudices.
Re: Similarities/Differences in CoC and Primitive Baptists
My now doesn't THAT sound familiar!
Anyway, 'Primitive Baptists' are the NI guys, and 'Missionary Baptists' are the 'mainstream' institutionalist survivors (and most numerous today).
they believe in adult baptism, a-capella music, are against 'Sunday school' in favor of whole families sitting in the auditorium (aka 'family worship') and 'reject Arminianism' and THAT, I think, is probably their biggest 'idea' difference from the CoC which tends to BE 'Arminian' (teresa has some good material on the main site here, about Arminianism and the CoC).
Also from Wikipedia on Arminianism, and Wesleyan Arminianism (which Wesley came up with independently):
The majority of Southern Baptists accept Arminianism, with an exception allowing for a doctrine of eternal security,[36][37][38][31] though many see Calvinism as growing in acceptance.[39] Certain proponents of Arminianism may be found within the Restoration movement in the Christian Churches and Churches of Christ.[35] Additionally, it is found in the Seventh-day Adventist Church.[31] Arminianism (specifically Wesleyan–Arminian theology) is taught in the Methodist churches,[40] inclusive of those denominations aligned with the holiness movement such as the Evangelical Methodist Church, Church of the Nazarene, the Free Methodist Church, the Wesleyan Church,[35] and the Salvation Army.[41] It is also found in a part of the Charismatics, including the Pentecostals.
Anyway, 'Primitive Baptists' are the NI guys, and 'Missionary Baptists' are the 'mainstream' institutionalist survivors (and most numerous today).
they believe in adult baptism, a-capella music, are against 'Sunday school' in favor of whole families sitting in the auditorium (aka 'family worship') and 'reject Arminianism' and THAT, I think, is probably their biggest 'idea' difference from the CoC which tends to BE 'Arminian' (teresa has some good material on the main site here, about Arminianism and the CoC).
Also from Wikipedia on Arminianism, and Wesleyan Arminianism (which Wesley came up with independently):
The majority of Southern Baptists accept Arminianism, with an exception allowing for a doctrine of eternal security,[36][37][38][31] though many see Calvinism as growing in acceptance.[39] Certain proponents of Arminianism may be found within the Restoration movement in the Christian Churches and Churches of Christ.[35] Additionally, it is found in the Seventh-day Adventist Church.[31] Arminianism (specifically Wesleyan–Arminian theology) is taught in the Methodist churches,[40] inclusive of those denominations aligned with the holiness movement such as the Evangelical Methodist Church, Church of the Nazarene, the Free Methodist Church, the Wesleyan Church,[35] and the Salvation Army.[41] It is also found in a part of the Charismatics, including the Pentecostals.
History is the fiction we invent to persuade ourselves that events are knowable and that life has order and direction. That's why events are always reinterpreted when values change. We need new versions of history to allow for our current prejudices.
Re: Similarities/Differences in CoC and Primitive Baptists
So - there are certainly a lot of similarities:
Congregational structure
adult baptism
a capella singing/anti musical instruments
focus on 'the New Testament church'
vaguely Arminian ideas
NICOC similarities in addition:
no Sunday school
no support for missionary organizations, or orphanages
lack of interest in hiring seminary trained preachers
Differences:
tending to some Calvinistic ideas about grace
foot washing (which doesn't sound like a deal breaker to me, but what do I know?)
Congregational structure
adult baptism
a capella singing/anti musical instruments
focus on 'the New Testament church'
vaguely Arminian ideas
NICOC similarities in addition:
no Sunday school
no support for missionary organizations, or orphanages
lack of interest in hiring seminary trained preachers
Differences:
tending to some Calvinistic ideas about grace
foot washing (which doesn't sound like a deal breaker to me, but what do I know?)
History is the fiction we invent to persuade ourselves that events are knowable and that life has order and direction. That's why events are always reinterpreted when values change. We need new versions of history to allow for our current prejudices.
Re: Similarities/Differences in CoC and Primitive Baptists
'Arminianism' is a broad field, of course - and my superficial reading of it is likely mistaken - HOWEVER, some of the major points ring a definite CoC bell in my mind - I'll try to summarize and then quit:
a) people have free will to accept God's grace of not (it isn't forced on them, and people have to make the first move) - this sounded very 'CoC' to me.
b) people are totally depraved (hmm. Yeah, we got that one)
c) people are saved by faith (OH YEAH we have a winner)
d) Jesus 'atonement' is - um - there are two views but they seem similar - anyway, it is SUBSTITUTIONARY (not all Christian denominations teach this)
e) eternal hellfire for the unbeliever - and therefore someone who has BEEN 'saved by faith', can also LOSE that salvation -
quote: Arminius believed in the possibility for a believer to commit apostasy (i.e., desert Christ by cleaving again to this evil world, losing a good conscience, or by failing to hold on to sound doctrine)
Now doesn't THAT sound familiar?!
Some other points -
both Arminius and Wesley strongly affirmed that man's basic condition is one in which he cannot be righteous, understand God, or seek God
The two systems of Calvinism and Arminianism share both history and many doctrines, and the history of Christian theology. However, because of their differences over the doctrines of divine predestination and election, many people view these schools of thought as opposed to each other. The distinction is whether God desires to save all yet allows individuals to resist the grace offered (in the Arminian doctrine) or if God desires to save only some and grace is irresistible to those chosen (in the Calvinist doctrine). Many consider the theological differences to be crucial differences in doctrine, while others find them to be relatively minor.
a) people have free will to accept God's grace of not (it isn't forced on them, and people have to make the first move) - this sounded very 'CoC' to me.
b) people are totally depraved (hmm. Yeah, we got that one)
c) people are saved by faith (OH YEAH we have a winner)
d) Jesus 'atonement' is - um - there are two views but they seem similar - anyway, it is SUBSTITUTIONARY (not all Christian denominations teach this)
e) eternal hellfire for the unbeliever - and therefore someone who has BEEN 'saved by faith', can also LOSE that salvation -
quote: Arminius believed in the possibility for a believer to commit apostasy (i.e., desert Christ by cleaving again to this evil world, losing a good conscience, or by failing to hold on to sound doctrine)
Now doesn't THAT sound familiar?!
Some other points -
both Arminius and Wesley strongly affirmed that man's basic condition is one in which he cannot be righteous, understand God, or seek God
The two systems of Calvinism and Arminianism share both history and many doctrines, and the history of Christian theology. However, because of their differences over the doctrines of divine predestination and election, many people view these schools of thought as opposed to each other. The distinction is whether God desires to save all yet allows individuals to resist the grace offered (in the Arminian doctrine) or if God desires to save only some and grace is irresistible to those chosen (in the Calvinist doctrine). Many consider the theological differences to be crucial differences in doctrine, while others find them to be relatively minor.
History is the fiction we invent to persuade ourselves that events are knowable and that life has order and direction. That's why events are always reinterpreted when values change. We need new versions of history to allow for our current prejudices.
Re: Similarities/Differences in CoC and Primitive Baptists
The CoC seemed to me to be strongly opposed to Calvinism, but I am unclear on exactly how - people who spent more time in the CoC than I did (or just paid more attention!) or went to a CoC college can probably do better on this topic than I can.
Well, that was fun on a very rainy Saturday!
What was the topic again?
Sorry.
Anyway - such differences as there are between Primitive Baptist and the CoC seem to center more on ideas than on practice, and the ideas appear to focus on the nature of faith - I think. Maybe I missed something. They look very similar to me, though.
Well, that was fun on a very rainy Saturday!
What was the topic again?
Sorry.
Anyway - such differences as there are between Primitive Baptist and the CoC seem to center more on ideas than on practice, and the ideas appear to focus on the nature of faith - I think. Maybe I missed something. They look very similar to me, though.
History is the fiction we invent to persuade ourselves that events are knowable and that life has order and direction. That's why events are always reinterpreted when values change. We need new versions of history to allow for our current prejudices.
Re: Similarities/Differences in CoC and Primitive Baptists
I used to do some radio preaching on 93.something out of Pikeville, KY. The Baptist Bible hour was on immediately before my church's 1/2 hour show. It was produced by some Primitive Baptists from Cincinnati. The expectation was that if the CoC show wasn't pretaped, whoever was going to be on that morning would listen to the Baptist Bible hour on the way up to the station so we could take a couple of quick shots at them in the intro.
Problem was, in that area, the educational level was so low and full-time preachers uncommon enough that you could have some hillbilly rail against some horrible caricature of Calvinism one week and the next be preaching 2 points of TULIP without realizing the mistake. Half of them ran a circuit on the same 2 bad sermons all month.
The Church of Christ colleges like to say that they are generally Arminian but that is not really accurate. Arminianism is a subset of Reformed Protestant theology. This would never make sense in a CoC setting because the CoC doesn't believe in Sacraments or church organization. Reformed theology has several sub-sets: Classical Calvinism, Synod of Dordt (TULIP), Amyraldism (4 point Calvinism), and Arminianism (3 1/2 point Calvinism). The CoC is usually semi-Pelagian.
Problem was, in that area, the educational level was so low and full-time preachers uncommon enough that you could have some hillbilly rail against some horrible caricature of Calvinism one week and the next be preaching 2 points of TULIP without realizing the mistake. Half of them ran a circuit on the same 2 bad sermons all month.
The Church of Christ colleges like to say that they are generally Arminian but that is not really accurate. Arminianism is a subset of Reformed Protestant theology. This would never make sense in a CoC setting because the CoC doesn't believe in Sacraments or church organization. Reformed theology has several sub-sets: Classical Calvinism, Synod of Dordt (TULIP), Amyraldism (4 point Calvinism), and Arminianism (3 1/2 point Calvinism). The CoC is usually semi-Pelagian.
Re: Similarities/Differences in CoC and Primitive Baptists
I don't actually think the CoC knows enough about normal Christianity to know WHERE they fit, and therefore they grab ideas from totally opposed actual theological SCHOOLS. But I'm sure you are right anyway.
The Campbells were - I think - Presbyterian? So there is a 'Calvinist' (or small c calvinist) strain in there. And Barton Stone was - what - a Baptist of some sort, wasnt he? I used to know this stuff, back when I had left the CoC and looked things up - God knows, I never heard the names 'Barton Stone' or 'Campbell' in MY church! We had 'founded 33 AD' on the CORNERSTONE! We were established by PAUL (or something).
The Campbells were - I think - Presbyterian? So there is a 'Calvinist' (or small c calvinist) strain in there. And Barton Stone was - what - a Baptist of some sort, wasnt he? I used to know this stuff, back when I had left the CoC and looked things up - God knows, I never heard the names 'Barton Stone' or 'Campbell' in MY church! We had 'founded 33 AD' on the CORNERSTONE! We were established by PAUL (or something).
History is the fiction we invent to persuade ourselves that events are knowable and that life has order and direction. That's why events are always reinterpreted when values change. We need new versions of history to allow for our current prejudices.