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The Lord's Day
Posted: Sun Oct 26, 2014 10:27 am
by Lev
A different thread got me thinking about the phrase, "The Lord's Day." I don't remember any interpretation of this in the COC except for "Sunday." There was a supposed difference between "The Lord's Day" and "The Day of the Lord." Anyone with some Greek knowledge care to comment on whether these English phrases actually are different in the Greek? What about other Christian interpretations from other denominations/traditions?
I first realized the tenacity with which the "Lord's Day=Sunday" belief is held when I suggested, at a COC bible study, that Romans 14 ("one man keeps a day as holy for the Lord, the other sees all days as equal" - paraphrased) could just as well apply to the specialness with which Sunday is viewed--it need not only be applied to annual holidays. My position was that The Lord's Day, The Day of the Lord, and The Day (as in Heb 11) were all referring to the second coming, or more properly, the final and total advent of the kingdom of God to earth. This idea was roundly criticized in the bible study in which I brought it up.
Lev
Re: The Lord's Day
Posted: Sun Oct 26, 2014 12:48 pm
by B.H.
I have read that John in Revelation 1:10 was probably calling the Sabbath the Lord's Day because he was raised a Jew. It does say in the Old testament that the sabbath was "my day" quoting God. That is the only place in the New Testament that the phrase "Lord's Day" is used. The word for sunday was always "the first day of the week" in the New Testament but by the time the New testament was finished the Lord's Day could have morphed into Sunday as more Gentiles joined. Just browsing around the Greek the words for Lord and day are switched around. It's says the-lord's-day in Revelation and in other places the-day-of-Lord. The term Day-of-Lord does seem to be used in the context of God's judgement, even in the Old Testament.
A very interesting question. I wish I could give you a better answer.
Re: The Lord's Day
Posted: Mon Oct 27, 2014 2:19 pm
by KLP
On the topic of which day of the week...this is how I would approach it, sort of backing into it since it is not specifically defined. Why would John use the phrase if nothing specific was intended to be conveyed...so it must have meant something. Also, it would seem odd for the new religion adherents wanting to separate themselves Judaism and Caesar worship and everything else to refer to the "Lord's Day" and not have something specific (and different) in mind. So I would argue it is not just any day one happens to choose. IMO, it makes sense that it is "the first day of the week" given his resurrection, and the Pauline instruction about collection and also the reference to the "Lord's" supper. I do not see any damage to the text by assuming it refers to "Sunday". I can see no reason to assume it is really just another way for them to refer to the Sabbath since they continued to use the term Sabbath. Therefore, to me it makes the most sense if the term "The Lord's Day" refers to the first day of the week known as "Sunday" (in some parts).
Obviously this differs from other similar phrases where a one time event like judgment is under consideration.
Re: The Lord's Day
Posted: Mon Oct 27, 2014 7:37 pm
by Lev
Given the nature of the rest of the book of Revelation, shouldn't we assume that "I was in the spirit on the Lord's Day" means that John believed that he had some sort of miraculous vision of the day in which God would fully come in his kingdom, a.k.a. the Day of the Lord?
Lev
Re: The Lord's Day
Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2014 2:38 am
by ena
Lev wrote: My position was that The Lord's Day, The Day of the Lord, and The Day (as in Heb 11) were all referring to the second coming, or more properly, the final and total advent of the kingdom of God to earth. This idea was roundly criticized in the bible study in which I brought it up.
I see that as a good question. Too bad some in the CoC don't want to look into details. They sure get detailed on their dogma. But then a dog's ma is a [derogatory term] and that they are good at doing. I have heard Christian's call Sunday the Christian Sabbath. As Christian Jews would have been familiar with keeping the Sabbath in might be natural to keep Sunday that way. Anyway I am grateful for the two day weekend. You may be dealing with something far older than you realize. I cannot say.
Re: The Lord's Day
Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2014 2:39 am
by ena
ena wrote:Lev wrote: My position was that The Lord's Day, The Day of the Lord, and The Day (as in Heb 11) were all referring to the second coming, or more properly, the final and total advent of the kingdom of God to earth. This idea was roundly criticized in the bible study in which I brought it up.
I see that as a good question. Too bad some in the CoC don't want to look into details. They sure get detailed on their dogma. But then a dog's ma is a [derogatory term] and that they are good at doing. I have heard Christian's call Sunday the Christian Sabbath. As Christian Jews would have been familiar with keeping the Sabbath it might be natural to keep Sunday that way. Anyway I am grateful for the two day weekend. You may be dealing with something far older than you realize. I cannot say. Wikipedia has an article.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord%27s_Day
Re: The Lord's Day
Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2014 1:01 pm
by B.H.
Lev wrote:Given the nature of the rest of the book of Revelation, shouldn't we assume that "I was in the spirit on the Lord's Day" means that John believed that he had some sort of miraculous vision of the day in which God would fully come in his kingdom, a.k.a. the Day of the Lord?
Lev
I guess you could look at it like that too.
If you don't disfellowship me then I won't disfellowship you over it, agreed?
Re: The Lord's Day
Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2014 5:29 pm
by ena
Lev wrote:Given the nature of the rest of the book of Revelation, shouldn't we assume that "I was in the spirit on the Lord's Day" means that John believed that he had some sort of miraculous vision of the day in which God would fully come in his kingdom, a.k.a. the Day of the Lord?
John of Patmos which some believe is John the Apostle. Theologians call him that. He wrote in a spiritual rather obtuse way. It is explained in this link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_of_Patmos
He did have a somewhat obtuse way of describing things and much was relevant to his day and the politics of his day. But he was describing stuff in the future. There is much that is not describable and my hat goes off to those that attempt the near impossible. Near death experiences are like that while you can describe them you can't convey to another person the profoundness of it. The best common example I can come up with is try to describe an orgasm. Any description falls short of the experience. It is not my wish to be sexual, but it is the best common example that I can think of. It involves parts of the brain and reflex actions that shows us there is more there than conscious things.
Re: The Lord's Day
Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 3:20 am
by ena
Al Foy Abu Wallace wrote:If you don't disfellowship me then I won't disfellowship you over it, agreed?
The Evangelical Free church generally do not practice tests of faith. That does not mean anything goes but generally realize that their is a wide variation in faith. Flutterby a spirtual woman that lives with my wife and i has told me that Mother Mary saved her once. She is not Catholic. I believe that dead people don't do anything except rot. But that is personally held. What goes on in the spiritual realm who can say with certainty. The reason we don't see God is perhaps alternate dimensions. The best description I have heard is imagine that you could see a two dimensional being. This one hid all of her worldly goods in a closet. You could see them from the third dimension because we live there. I have built circuits the can generate and detect infrared light. You cannot see it. The sensors tell me it is there. At some point faith is needed. This is true even in science. Some facts are observable and some not. Sometimes you have to use what is observable to get to reality when reality may not be observable directly.
Re: The Lord's Day
Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 7:16 am
by Lev
ena wrote:I have built circuits the can generate and detect infrared light. You cannot see it. The sensors tell me it is there. At some point faith is needed. This is true even in science. Some facts are observable and some not. Sometimes you have to use what is observable to get to reality when reality may not be observable directly.
I get what you're saying but would caution against equating
sight to
observation for a couple of reasons. First, scientists make observations all the time that don't involve directly seeing whatever phenomena are being observed. Examples: x-ray images at the hospital, satellite imagery, ultrasound, long-term data from weather stations, ice core samples, particle physics experiments done at colliders like the LHC, etc. Second, sight is often held up as the best method of 'getting the facts' but has actually been shown to be quite unreliable. Check out the experiment with the bouncing balls and the man in the gorilla suit. I'm sure googling those terms will bring it up. (If it doesn't, I'm sure it will at least bring up something equally interesting.)
Lev
(Edited to attribute the quoted text to the right person)