Ex-Church of Christ Support Board

I would say the past impact has been somewhat positive, but currently the impact has taken a sharp change. I come from an ultra conservative sect. I recently began going to an orthodox church, since I have been studying it for many years and decided I needed to get out.

I grew up knowing alcohol is bad period, you can't mix bathe (that was always a strange way to put it! I just wanted to go swimming!!) and no way could you think about dancing. I was able to handle that and really feel that I had a good and normal up bringing. But the alcohol thing really turned the tables, doctrinally for me. You see, if wine is spoken of in a positive manner that was good old grape juice, negatively it was alcohol. Totally illogical, now I don't bring that up to say that I am now a wine bibber and the sum total of my life is to drink alcohol and that is why I am not a coc'er. It goes to inconsistencies and how the dogma and doctrines are adhered to because of tradition and frankly, "we are better". I know not all see it this way but it plays into bigger discrepancies as I worked through what I believe about church, authority and where I believe I need to be. The "logic" is this: if you never take a drink, you will never be a drunkard. Result, never take a drink. True, and if I never have sex, I will never be a fornicator or adulterer so I should never have sex even if I am married! You see, the bad verses in the bible about wine and the bad verses in the bible about sexual relations do not keep you from engaging in those things, only to be careful and moderate and in proper context - a heart condition if you will.

These inconsistencies fueled my desire for a better understanding in all areas not just those two. My desire has always been to be right and true to my self. So, after years of me talking with family and friends about the history of the church and the writings of the apostolic and church fathers I have told my family about me going to an orthodox church and sent my exit letter my local church. The impact has become real, the old "it hitting the fan" thing. My former preacher receives support from a neighboring church in an other city that my parents go to. In his monthly report to the bredren, he called us out by name because we haven't been as committed to the church as he thinks we could have been. Of course in his response to my email he told me that as well. It is my theory that for about six weeks this nosey preacher couldn't figure out where we were going to church and when we finally left decided he would inform the church where everyone knows my family in order to prompt questions from my family to me. Well I beat him to it and informed my family before he sent his monthly letter.

My father seemed upset with this preacher and was wanting to respond to him about calling us out by name, that was positive and as of this past Sunday the letter has not been posted at his church. We have also heard from a couple of members that were a little put off about the announcing of us leaving because not only did he read my positive exit letter but his response which questioned our commitment. I have a feeling things are changing over there. One person said, "that wouldn't want to make me come back", my wife liked that. I suppose after all these years of relatively positive interactions with this preacher and his family was only a show.

Now to my immediate family. Father doesn't really get it but is not angry, yet. Brother, sees where I am coming from but is have a couple of issues with what the new church teaches. Mom is in full grown passive aggressive doom and dark despair. When I initially told them "where we were going to church" she said "well it is your soul not mine". That made me feel funny but really that is your first response? A few days go by and I was making a joke with a mutual friend not related at all to this topic and it got more intense. I jokingly stated that I was the spawn of the devil in connection to a story about something totally not related to me leaving the church and mom under breath said "you don't know how close that is". That one hit hard. She has been cold, and it is very noticeable. Working in a family business doesn't help either. She even called dad and had him print out some of the "stuff" she had been reading to give to me to see if I really agreed with this new found heresy. Of course, I said if I didn't believe it I would not be going there. I just don't understand how such intelligent and honestly nice people can get turned sideways.

My trouble is that there is a total unwillingness to just discuss. The questions are not to gain information but to set traps. Minds are made up and there is no gray area or any room for varying ideas or even that their theological predecessors were flawed. I am expected to have more faith when it comes to believing CoC doctrine as prescribed by them. Yet when I point out contradictions in their own belief system the answer is, "we just have to have faith that the bible is all we need" even though no one reads it and without contradiction comes to the same conclusions about various topics, the alcohol stated above is an example. We have over the years had discussions about different topics and were able to agree and "see where you are coming from" all the time, but when someone acts on the information, well now the the soul is in danger. You see in the CoC they can talk about stuff and agree with about all sorts of things yet when it is time to act the discussion becomes hurtful and can only resort to name calling and entrenchment in old beliefs.

To sum up, I have friends and family who view things similarly as I do on certain hot topics but are unable or unwilling to act and remain in a religion they do not fully embrace as it is taught from the pulpit, bible class and the brotherhood papers. They see contradictions, they act in stealth mode when they go to church and these topics come up but heaven forbid we actually do something, I mean, what would these folks do without Wednesday Night bible study and Sunday potlucks at the local community center? I'm afraid the impact is only beginning.

gordie91 wrote:...To sum up, I have friends and family who view things similarly as I do on certain hot topics but are unable or unwilling to act and remain in a religion they do not fully embrace as it is taught from the pulpit, bible class and the brotherhood papers. They see contradictions, they act in stealth mode when they go to church and these topics come up but heaven forbid we actually do something, I mean, what would these folks do without Wednesday Night bible study and Sunday potlucks at the local community center? I'm afraid the impact is only beginning.

This reminds me of the interaction between Cephas and Paul that is recounted in Galatian 2. Peter was "acting" as if he agreed with and went along with those who were from James, but only when they were around.

My wife was blasted last weekend by her Mother that she allowed her husband (me) to convert her from Catholisim to coc. Of course, we are ex-coc now. She told her to convert me back to Catholic. Which is just not going to happen. Her Mom then called and apologized 2 days later.

It's amazing how close an old school Catholic can be so much like an old biddy at the coc.

We feel your pain...

We've talked a lot here about how illogical the prejudice against alcoholic is in the C of C. There really is no logic to it! Of course, Jesus turned water into wine at the wedding. Not grape juice. And the Bible only teaches against drunkenness, not having a glass of wine here and there. It is time they let this go.

I agree, it is time they let this go. But there are lots of CoC (and Baptists) who are never going to forgive Jesus for turning water into wine!

Opie wrote:I agree, it is time they let this go. But there are lots of CoC (and Baptists) who are never going to forgive Jesus for turning water into wine!

Forgiveness is a long, hard road.

Opie wrote:I agree, it is time they let this go. But there are lots of CoC (and Baptists) who are never going to forgive Jesus for turning water into wine!

Good one! My grandmother was a very generous older woman. My cousin gave me a scan of her obituary. It said that she was a member of WCTU. It stands for Women's Christian Temperance Union. I knew she was a teatotaler but an extremist? She remains a favorite of mine. If you have an alcoholic in the family it can ripple for generations. Changing water into wine was alcoholic because they would like the familar. Grape Juice as we know is pasteurized. Louis Pasteur lived the 1800's. In Jesus time there was no refrigeration and yeast lives on the skin of the grape. Any squeezing would infect the brew. Sorry no new wine!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_Pasteur

Quote from link above about Pasteur under Spontaneous Generation

"Following his fermentation experiments, Pasteur demonstrated that the skin of grapes was the natural source of yeasts, and that sterilized grapes and grape juice never fermented. He drew grape juice from under the skin with sterilzed needles, and also covered grapes with sterilized cloth. Both experiments could not produce wine in sterilized containers. "

In Greek the word for wine is "oinos". There is also a word in Greek for grape juice, but the word John used when writing about the miracle was "oinos", and not the word for grape juice. John understood the difference, just as we understand the difference. The only ones who want to argue about it and make it a big deal are those who are not being honest with the text of the bible.

Opie wrote:In Greek the word for wine is "oinos". There is also a word in Greek for grape juice, but the word John used when writing about the miracle was "oinos", and not the word for grape juice. John understood the difference, just as we understand the difference. The only ones who want to argue about it and make it a big deal are those who are not being honest with the text of the bible.

I looked up oinos and got this. This link gives 34 passages using oinos and its Strong's number.

http://biblehub.com/greek/3631.htm

Matt 9:17 KJV Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.

The reason is that old bottles contain yeast. There is too much of a yeast culture which generates carbon dioxide and alcohol. The carbon dioxide explodes the bottles during fermentation. No alcohol and CO2 no explosion. Even Jesus does not agree.

Champagne is made with slow fermentation with thicker bottles. I saw this being done at Reims, France. Drank some at age 20 at the end of the Mumm tour. This was the good stuff. They use wine cellars which are cooler. There was no age limit on drinking in Europe.