Ex-Church of Christ Support Board

I think the thinking that the Universe and Creation had a logic, meaning, purpose, and design made me less willing to believe the many various stories. So from folk stories about the great wolf or whatever, they just seemed to be manmade myths. Same for cosmic stuff like Scientology, astrology, spirit of the universe whisper, or jumping on the spaceship behind a comet like Heaven's Gate folks. Also made me less likely to follow a cult like a Jim Jones or LDS or Rev Moon. Basically any fantastic story like a great or giant this that or the other millions of years ago and all that stuff seemed overly complicated and fantastic and did not jive with the rather uniform and regulated universe that is on display in daily life.

It just seems that no matter how complicated and fantastic some group story is, they always have yet another book or explanation for explaining what they already are having trouble explaining...it is like turtles all the way down but in a quasi-intellectual form of explanations on top (or underneath) of explanations.

In light of this I find the Bible account to be fairly simple in that instead of explaining and explaining, it is more of a "here it is, believe it if you have an ear and heart to believe". So there are not a lot of details about Creation, God's thinking and background, or the afterlife. There is a rather simple trust and obey arrangement. But yes, I understand folks layer tons and tons of stuff on top of the Bible itself and go in for all sorts of ornate and fanciful implementations. But I think my upbringing in the rather simple CofC and understanding of natural law has me sort of immune t these more ornate religions. But I drink my coffee black and I tend to get less features on things I buy so as to not have so much to go wrong. I mean do I really need motorized headlights or three transmission modes? Just a bunch of silly fluff to occupy IMO.

There are some elements of the Old Testament that also seem mythological (to me, at least). The story of Daniel in the Lion's Den, Samson and Delilah, where his strength was in his hair and he wasn't supposed to cut it. And also the Story of Noah's Ark. The New Testament seems like a different book altogether. Not as many fantastical stories. I have to wonder why.

The account of how God punished sin with the flood is amazing. It explains so much. Glad he promised not to do that again.

When I saw this thread I thought you were going to say that hanging around me here all these years helped you to be less gullible.

Others may have their turtle or a wolf but there is that story in Genesis about the talking snake. You also have the story about the talking donkey too.

When I saw you posting I thought you were going to talk about some guy by himself claiming to have had a special revelation years ago and then others later deciding to write it down from their memory or what the one guy's memory was and then claim it was perfect. No, as I said, I think it made me less given to accepting certain types of stories and therefore less gullible. Thanks for the opportunity to clarify for you.

You know there is something to what you are saying. CoC, theology has a certain rationality to it. Mainly in the approach to doing theology, of course in practice those methods become tools for whipping people into shape so to speak (irrational) when misapplied or to push a personal agenda.

So when I hear of other religions and secular scare mongers like the global warming, back to the stone age leftist types, I have a questioning mind when I am to just believe their POV. Through my struggles with CoC beliefs and doctrines, I became an objectivist-the philosophy of rational self-interest. Yes, this is the philosophy of Ayn Rand. I have since used logic, the art of non-contradictory reasoning to reconcile my belief. Far too many times in the CoC, they are real good at twisting but in a methodical and believable way so that people will either see it their way or just outwardly go along and in private have their own views just so they don't make waves. I think the not making waves for me was so very hypocritical and to much to bear, so I left.

Telling people they should just believe something because an authority says so (an appeal to authority) only works if the authority you appeal to actually has KNOWLEDGE whereof he/she speaks.

One would expect a pediatrician to be a valid authority about medical stuff, and not so much about astronomy, but an astronomer would know a great deal more about the stars than a pediatrician. So if a pediatrician tells you your kid has measles, that is probably something you should accept on authority. But if the same pediatrician tells you a meteor is going to destroy the earth tomorrow, maybe you should ask an astronomer first.

Yeah, it raises red flags to me when someone says they are just providing an education from the POV of an authority but then discussion of all views is allowed. Or they use pejorative phrases and out-of-hand dismissal before a question is even asked. Such as saying "no honest student" could possibly have a serious doubt or concern or objection.

And so what if a person is an authority on some unprovable topic? I mean just because an "authority" is knowledgeable about some belief system doesn't mean that that belief system is not still full of baloney. So I am less gullible I think because of CofC, more ready to ask to see behind the curtain rather then just trust these good and honest authorities to just be telling me the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Maybe they have something valid to say or a valid argument...but just because they are an "authority" or published a book means nothing beyond just that. But some people are really impressed by credentials and resume and reflexively defer and submit to such authority. Clergy/Laity thinking IMO. The old Phil Hendrie comedy radio show used this concept of "well I am the authority" to shut down debate and discussion at every turn. Funny stuff and showed the effectiveness of the technique.

Those dismissive statements are a tool most certainly to deflect/redirect any questions concerning what this person of authority is trying to preach/teach. The Bible "clearly" states or "anyone that has a pure heart" or "sincere desire" can be used to shame someone into retracting contrary statements. The idea is that the group can influence a person just because it appears that everyone is in agreement with the authoritative figure. So, differing views are pushed out of the group and the person that is making a point of difference either conforms or remains silent in the future and of course leave. But it seems in my experience, people are real hesitant to just leave because the pressure from the group to conform is ramped up on the person that leaves. But there are some that have very strong views, leave, take people with them and can start a new church that fits their position. Rinse, Repeat, Rinse.

I often wonder how some of my friends and family, that have their different views, can remain in these churches and just allow the men (and women) to continue to teach and preach something inconsistent with their beliefs. It drove me crazy sitting there and the drive home after made my wife very angry with me. But thank goodness for iPhones and those silly apps. and sitting on the back row.

Yes the group can put a lot of pressure on folks to conform or at least try to put pressure to conform. Those who are somewhat in a group often bring up how many people agree with them, their credentials, and try to make it seem like any non-conformist is alone, anything to marginalize the one who dares to not conform obediently and immediately and to praise the group leaders. It is funny to me that in the groups of "rebels" there is great conformity in their dress, language, and behavior. They often end up engaging in the same behavior they supposedly are rebelling against or claim to have rejected. But...being are on the right side this time and there is no trouble using the "authority" to shutdown/prevent discussions or questions.

But if the group pressure thing does not work then they just find some silly rule violation to go after the person...rules are a big thing to these types, but they have a lot of flexibility in enforcement depending on who is who...some are more equal. Or there is always the trusty claim that some poor soul is being offending or traumatized by discussing something...after all, we have to have our safe spaces and all. So these days everyone is so fragile that almost nothing can be discussed as an adult or in a civil manner. There are just so many tools to shut down inconvenient/reality discussions and to push conformity.