The beginning of the end for me

[Chan]

About 20 years ago, I was attending an ultra hardcore conservative church because I worked for someone who went to that church. He was teaching a Bible class and said we should not participate in raising of hands in worship because even though it was scriptural, it was copying denominations and therefore shouldn't be done. I was in total disbelief over that one. So using that reasoning, that means we also shouldn't pray, sing, have sermons, communion, etc. because denominations do those things too. I did continue going to a coc for many years after that, but never again to a church that hardcore.

Also I knew 2 adult young men from this church who advocated that since lusting after someone was the same as committing adultery, it was okay to just go ahead and commit adultery. These were men who were planning to become preachers.

These same 2 men would purposefully go to a more liberal church in order to stir up controversy.

[onward]

About 20 years ago, I was attending an ultra hardcore conservative church because I worked for someone who went to that church. He was teaching a Bible class and said we should not participate in raising of hands in worship because even though it was scriptural, it was copying denominations and therefore shouldn't be done. I was in total disbelief over that one. So using that reasoning, that means we also shouldn't pray, sing, have sermons, communion, etc. because denominations do those things too. I did continue going to a coc for many years after that, but never again to a church that hardcore.

Cultish CoC tribes will buy into just about anything that separates them from the dreaded "denominational" groups. Anything that doesn't mesh 100% with their infallible Scriptural interpretations and church traditions is automatically wrong, and to be avoided at all cost. Bottom line ... we're always right, and you're always wrong!

[MusicMan826]

I remember a big debate came up once because one of the men wanted to call an upcoming gospel meeting a revival. His logic was, "Nobody wants to come to something called a meeting, that sounds boring and that may be one reason we never get any visitors." Referring to it as a revival was quickly shot down. Why? "That's what the Baptists call it!" We also had an old, dirty, beat up sign out front and a few people were pushing for a new sign, one with the blank lines you could put letters in. After years of debate the church finally got one of the signs, but it was met with much reluctance. Why? "Those look like the signs the Baptist churches use!" So many silly little things were shot down in fear of looking like denominations, especially those evil Baptists!

[agricola]

Oh those young guys....

The problem with the whole 'as a man thinking in his heart' business combined with the teaching that even THINKING about adultery (any sin) is 'the same as' actually doing it - That is just SO PERNICIOUS an idea! No, thinking about something is NOT the same as doing it! Yes, dwelling on a thought CAN lead to acting on it, but it doesn't always - and believe me, it makes a HUGE difference to the victim!

An inimical THOUGHT does me no real damage, while an inimical ACT most certainly does! There is a huge difference between 'thinking about' rape or murder and actually COMMITTING rape or murder.

I think Jesus had to be exaggerating to make a point there, not laying out an excuse for evil actions. Since when do we 'have to' do everything that might enter our minds to do?

[KLP]

Of course the faithful Bible student will know that the reason the term "Revival" is wrong is that it implies a need to be revived. A quick word study will show that this means to make "live" or "quick" again. In order to make "alive again" would mean the Lord's church is now dead. And of course we know the Lord's church does not need anything of the such but is instead engaged in spreading the Gospel. So that is why it is called a Gospel Meeting...to tell people in the world the good news that Jesus died for our sins and was raised on the 3rd day 1 Cor. 15:1-4.

[agricola]

klp, you just know those buzzwords and arguments so WELL! That is indeed exactly how the discussion goes, leaving listeners - eventually - in a tangle of knots without easy resolution or clear understanding (except of course, whatever the question was, the answer is probably 'no you can't').

[onward]

An inimical THOUGHT does me no real damage, while an inimical ACT most certainly does! There is a huge difference between 'thinking about' rape or murder and actually COMMITTING rape or murder.

I think Jesus had to be exaggerating to make a point there, not laying out an excuse for evil actions. Since when do we 'have to' do everything that might enter our minds to do?

Guess someone needs to knock some sense into me, but I find it difficult, if not impossible, to think of Jesus as needing to exaggerate anything to get His point across. In fact, if Jesus is perfect (as the Bible indicates) it would be impossible for Him to exaggerate, because exaggeration is a form of lying, and He doesn't lie.

[agricola]

Ah, but the use of metaphor and simile isn't 'lying', is it?


Given that Jesus was likely a) speaking in Aramaic and b) being quoted from memory by somebody to somebody else, decades later, and c) translated eventually along the line into a foreign language (Greek) it is not impossible to imagine that he actually may have said that 'thinking about adultery in your heart (which in those days meant 'in your mind') is ALMOST LIKE, or ABOUT THE SAME AS, or 'LEADS TO' actually doing the deed.

[onward]

Ah, but the use of metaphor and simile isn't 'lying', is it?

While the "metaphor and simile" can be used as an aid to understand something difficult, It seems implausible that "exaggeration" would aid in reaching a correct understanding, and more than likely just lead to more confusion ... and it doesn't take much to confuse me ...

[KLP]

So Is it literally true that if you have faith of a mustard seed then you can tell mountains to relocate? And remember, when you come to Jesus and are not already hating your own family then you are wasting your time and His. Should you pluck out your eye or cut off you hand? It seems in at least some of these there is an exaggeration along with hyperbole.