Baptism

[agricola]

The earlier covenant/agreement which teresa is referencing is known nowadays as the Noachide covenant. It is not specifically laid out in the Hebrew scriptures, but rabbinic interpretations of the story of Noah (who is, after all, a 'new Adam' being the single father of the surviving human race) list seven 'commandments', among them are prohibitions against idol worship, and against animal cruelty (eating 'the limb of the living') and the positive commandment of setting up courts of justice.


The seven Noachide commandments are viewed as incumbent on all mankind, and although the later covenant with the Hebrews at Sinai is better known, the Noachide commandments were not eliminated.

Compilations of the seven laws vary somewhat - the number 'seven' is simply seen as a kind of 'complete set' (just as 'ten' and 'twelve' are special numbers).

Let me see if I can find a reasonable list -

[agricola]

Do Not Deny God
Do Not Blaspheme God
Do Not Murder
Do Not Engage in immoral relationships.
Do Not Steal
Do Not Eat of a Live Animal
Establish Functioning Courts of Law

According to Rabbinic tradition,the Noahide laws are derived exegetically from the few commandments which were given to Adam in the Garden of Eden, Gen 2:16, and a seventh precept regarding animals, which was added after the Flood of Noah.

[musicman]

I dislike the CoC's policy of baptizing people as young as twelve. What does a twelve year old truly know about religion or spirituality?

Sometimes they're younger than twelve. I noticed earlier this year on website of C o C where my Dad is a member..several baptisms of kids who were well under 12.

I too have wondered about this. Do these children really know what they're doing or understand the significance of baptism? In C o C baptism is just the first step. All C o C claims to the contrary, one who has been baptized must still "remain faithful until death" and earn salvation by good works.

[agricola]

In my more grumpy moments, I think children should be protected from religion until they are 21 years old.

[tarheel]

This whole discussion demonstrates to me the problem with the whole christian concept. Why should there be a need for so much discussion and interpretation? Seems to me that if there was a supreme being that wanted us/you to follow a certain path that supreme being would be very specific and eliminate the need for clarification and discussion. If you are determined to follow the tradition then it seems to me that everyone should just follow their own interpretation as most will never be convinced that anothers view is superior. A lot of wasted energy.

[tarheel]

In my more grumpy moments, I think children should be protected from religion until they are 21 years old.

Agreed. My youngest was protected from indoctrination by religion. We were very careful to make sure of that. As an adult we have encouraged him to do his own research and study ancient history and come to his own conclusions. He is now 27 and finds it very difficult to accept any religious tradition.

[teresa]

Curious as to what everyone thinks about Baptism and if it's needed for salvation.

Speaking from the fundamentalist perspective (although I am not a fundamentalist):

The NT equivalent of the OT covenant-making circumcision is not baptism, but rather the circumcision of the heart by the Spirit.

Baptism provides the individual with an experiential sense of God's cleansing. It is a tangible act that the Christian can look back on, and serves the purpose of providing assurance to the individual of God's cleansing and acceptance into God's family.

Baptism confirms a relationship that already exists, just as God's covenants with Abraham confirmed a relationship that already existed between them. Abraham was already in close familial relationship with God for many years before God arranged a covenant-making ceremony (split-animals) at the request of Abraham for assurance that God would keep his land promise to him. In the same way, Abraham was already in close familial relationship with God for many years before God confirmed their relationship with the covenant-making act of circumcision.

[Struggler]

I'll never forget hearing a minister say that being baptized is an act of faith, and the biddies and others taking issue with that. Their contention was that you are baptized ONLY because it's "a command, and nothing else." How foolish!

[bnot]

"I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire" Matt 3:11

Mark 1:8 " I baptize you with water, but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.”

I'm beginning to move away fro the coc view on Baptism. It makes much more sense that baptism when we believe and we are baptized by the Holy Spirit. I'm still studying this,but that is the direction I'm pointed in. Even in Acts (the coc favorite book) it says the same thing
Acts 11:16-17
16 Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He said, ‘John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ 17 If therefore God gave them the same gift as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could withstand God?”

Baptism happens at the point we believe, not waiting for some preacher to dunk us in water and thus getting all the credit and pats on the back/handshakes for saving someone. I'm still studying this, but that's the way I see it for now.

[zeek]

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