Baptism

[Turtle]

In my more grumpy moments, I think children should be protected from religion until they are 21 years old.

Like.

Personally I don't think people are broken, or in need of salvation, so of course I don't think baptism is necessary. Evolution pretty much negates The Fall. Without that, there is no need for a sacrificial savior. Without a sacrificial savior, no need for the act of baptism, the symbol of the savior's death, burial and resurrection.

[Scott]

"I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire" Matt 3:11

Mark 1:8 " I baptize you with water, but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.”

I'm beginning to move away fro the coc view on Baptism. It makes much more sense that baptism when we believe and we are baptized by the Holy Spirit. I'm still studying this,but that is the direction I'm pointed in. Even in Acts (the coc favorite book) it says the same thing
Acts 11:16-17
16 Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He said, ‘John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ 17 If therefore God gave them the same gift as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could withstand God?”

Baptism happens at the point we believe, not waiting for some preacher to dunk us in water and thus getting all the credit and pats on the back/handshakes for saving someone. I'm still studying this, but that's the way I see it for now.

This is an interesting viewpoint that seems to make sense. That's a new look for me. Will have to study this more.
I am thinking at this point after not being involved in any Church for over 25 years I can only rely on the love of God.
I have two sons and I would come to their rescue no matter what, whether they obeyed/respected me or not. Even if they cursed me and I have cursed God.
Can only assume that if I wasn't Baptized correctly when my time comes Jesus himself will come down and work it all out.
I will willingly bow down to him either way that it goes.
Maybe I am a simpleton but just could never swallow the evolution thing. I respect the position and can agree that biology can adapt/evolve.
Just can't get my head around the origins of life itself regardless of time and I don't think Science has either. But I am willing to look at evidence.
To me the mere fact that I am talking about a man who lived 2000 years ago on this board is proof in itself. The OT prophesies also help.

[Scott]

In my more grumpy moments, I think children should be protected from religion until they are 21 years old.

My wife has brought my sons up as Catholics. I was also brought up as a Catholic but I am not a Catholic.
My kids know that I believe in God because I still make life decisions based upon the scriptures and I openly explain to them why, specially when it effect their lives.
But my kids do not know fully my past envolvment in the Coc and what it is and all that. I have never "forced" them to believe anything, I have just told them what I believe and that they need to make their own decision in the end. My 17 year old asked me last month what I wanted him to be, I told him that I wanted him to be free to make his own decisions. But I did warn him that he should be on guard as to other people's influence. I know when he goes off to college this year If I hear he got envolved with the Coc I would then have to break that stance and I would warn him at the top of my lungs. But if in the end he did make that decision, well I am not sure what I would do. Anyway The Catholics Baptize infants and then have the ritual of "Confirmation" at the age of 13. The Jews have Bar Mitzvah at the age of 13. Must be something scripturally as to why they choose the age of 13?

[agricola]

Probably because puberty hits, and parental influence vanishes like dew in the morning!
PS for girls the age is 12.

[illuminator]

Speaking of baptism ...

[Michael]

"I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire" Matt 3:11

Mark 1:8 " I baptize you with water, but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.”

I'm beginning to move away fro the coc view on Baptism. It makes much more sense that baptism when we believe and we are baptized by the Holy Spirit. I'm still studying this,but that is the direction I'm pointed in. Even in Acts (the coc favorite book) it says the same thing
Acts 11:16-17
16 Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He said, ‘John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ 17 If therefore God gave them the same gift as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could withstand God?”

Baptism happens at the point we believe, not waiting for some preacher to dunk us in water and thus getting all the credit and pats on the back/handshakes for saving someone. I'm still studying this, but that's the way I see it for now.

This is my first post: The doctrines of baptism was the tipping point for my leaving the coc. Several years ago I had an experience that led me to intensely study scripture and while studying Acts - I discovered that the coc proof texts on baptism didn't add up to the text. Specifically there were more than one type of baptism in the text, the convoluted explanation on Cornelius was twisted, and in Acts 19, believers called disciples had been baptized but not received the Holy Ghost. That meant to me that Acts 2:38 might not be all inclusive and the writers of the Gospels clearly separated the baptism for repentance and the baptism of the Holy Spirit. I recently read a book by Robert Morris called the Power of Your Words in which he has a chapter on baptism that really lines up with what I read in scripture: Here is a link to an article of his that does a really good job of explaining what I read in my opinion.
h**p://www.charismamag.com/spirit/supernatural ... oly-spirit

[zeek]

"I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire" Matt 3:11

Mark 1:8 " I baptize you with water, but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.”

I'm beginning to move away fro the coc view on Baptism. It makes much more sense that baptism when we believe and we are baptized by the Holy Spirit. I'm still studying this,but that is the direction I'm pointed in. Even in Acts (the coc favorite book) it says the same thing
Acts 11:16-17
16 Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He said, ‘John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ 17 If therefore God gave them the same gift as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could withstand God?”

Baptism happens at the point we believe, not waiting for some preacher to dunk us in water and thus getting all the credit and pats on the back/handshakes for saving someone. I'm still studying this, but that's the way I see it for now.

This is my first post: The doctrines of baptism was the tipping point for my leaving the coc. Several years ago I had an experience that led me to intensely study scripture and while studying Acts - I discovered that the coc proof texts on baptism didn't add up to the text. Specifically there were more than one type of baptism in the text, the convoluted explanation on Cornelius was twisted, and in Acts 19, believers called disciples had been baptized but not received the Holy Ghost. That meant to me that Acts 2:38 might not be all inclusive and the writers of the Gospels clearly separated the baptism for repentance and the baptism of the Holy Spirit. I recently read a book by Robert Morris called the Power of Your Words in which he has a chapter on baptism that really lines up with what I read in scripture: Here is a link to an article of his that does a really good job of explaining what I read in my opinion.
http://www.charismamag.com/spirit/super ... oly-spirit

Hi, Michael, welcome to the group. You might want to drop by the welcome thread and tell us a bit about yourself.

[B.H.]

There was a CoC preacher I think named Moser who had a rather unique view about baptism. He argued you were de facto saved the moment you truly believed and ceremonially considered saved when you were baptized.

The analogy was like graduating high school. You are de facto considered graduated when the dean or counselor stamps on your transcript all the required classes have been passed and you are now graduated. You are graduated in the ceremonial sense when you put on the cap and gown and walk the stage to get the paper.