Obsession with Baptists

[B.H.]

You are right, BH - BUT the RC also believe people can be saved 'outside' the church entirely - it is just that they believe those people are, in fact, still being saved 'through' the church, even though they don't know it.

Generous of them, I suppose.

Yes, everyone not Catholic but baptized in the name of the trinity is Catholic by default whether they acknowledge it or not.

But it is like I tell the woman she and her church may claim infallibility of the pope in certain circumstances and that the magesterium is the authority on teaching but at the end of the day it is just their opinion and their own interpretation.

[KLP]

You are right, BH - BUT the RC also believe people can be saved 'outside' the church entirely - it is just that they believe those people are, in fact, still being saved 'through' the church, even though they don't know it.

Generous of them, I suppose.

Yes, everyone not Catholic but baptized in the name of the trinity is Catholic by default whether they acknowledge it or not.

But it is like I tell the woman she and her church may claim infallibility of the pope in certain circumstances and that the magesterium is the authority on teaching but at the end of the day it is just their opinion and their own interpretation.

At the end of the day yes, but perhaps not at the end of this life

[ena]

You are right, BH - BUT the RC also believe people can be saved 'outside' the church entirely - it is just that they believe those people are, in fact, still being saved 'through' the church, even though they don't know it.

Generous of them, I suppose.

Not really. If you partake Eucharist outside the Church it is not really the blood and body of Jesus. See what I mean about symbolic things. Besides after 2000 years there isn't anything left. Crucified and cannibalized.

[ena]

A crucial difference between the CoC and Baptists is what does : "Remission for sins" mean. The real question revolves around the meaning of the word "for". If you say "I got the receipt for permission to park" and later "I paid the receipt for parking". The word "for' means for something you are going to receive and for something already received. This is the critical difference on baptism. If you got baptized for remission of sins, then you received the baptism of John. What? Looking at the Bible in Mark 1:4: KJV

John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

You should see that there is something wrong here. Doesn't water baptism save?
The answer is no. The person is saved by faith. Baptism is a response symbolic of salvation. You will see agreement in other scriptures that are ignored by the CoC.
So let's go into the den of the lion. Acts 2:38 KJV

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Was the remission of sins received before or after baptism? Either meaning can be correct. Are there scriptures that fit one view or the other. The answer yes. I am going to continue this post before I time out.

[ena]

Acts 10:43-47 KJV

43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,

47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

Notice the first verse and the last. They were already saved before they were baptized. Verse 43 would not make sense if the CoC way was true.

John 3:16 KJV

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

[Cootie Brown]

This sin issue depends on a belief that there is even such a thing as original sin. In order for the basic premise of Christianity to be true, and Jesus to be relevant, then the book of Genesis must be literally true & historically accurate.How likely is that?

And what exactly are believers being saved from? Supposedly a tyrannical invisible little old man, that lives up in the sky somewhere, that promises to burn "sinners" alive forever as punishment for being born depraved sinners. One doesn't become a sinner because Adam sinned, we are all supposedly born inherently sinful. And therefore we must be saved from this vengeful God, who apparently can't get over the fact Adam ate a piece of fruit that he was told not to eat. Therefore every human being that will ever be born must be punished for something Adam supposedly did.

Let's see now, people have no problem accepting Egyptian, Greek, & Roman religions are based on myths, but Abrahamic religions are the real deal. The reality that these Abrahamic religions appear to be modified copies from other ancient cultures religions that were based on myths is ignored.

The God that Christians worship is the son of a mythical Canannite war God. Therefore one must believe a mythical God gave birth to a real God & this real God became flesh & allowed human's to crucify him in order to save those who believe this story.

And that leads people to argue & debate whether or not being dunked in water will save someone or not. Being sprinkled or touched on the forehead with a wet thumb is a whole nether issue. Many believe people are saved by faith & faith alone but others say that isn't true. And both groups can produce scripture to back up their beliefs.

Obviously getting saved is an emotional decision not an intellectual one. And even after being "saved" most believers live in fear because they can never be certain they really are saved; because the Bible says God doesn't even know many who say
Lord, Lord, have we not done many good works in your name?

Salvation seems to be conditional, but those conditions are ambiguous at best.

[agricola]

That's an argument better suited to Old Paths, Cootie.

I think Baptists and CoC'ers are so very close on so much, that they tend to really magnify their (relatively minor) differences to mountains instead of molehills. The baptism thing is probably the single most important difference.

[B.H.]

Church of Christ says you are saved the minute you get up from the water after being dunked. The Baptists say you are saved the minute you truly believe in Christ and trust him to save you. In my opinion looking back I's argue today they are actually both right, but from different perspectives.

It's like when you are in high school. You are legally considered graduated from high school when the counselor or dean or principal reviews your record and sees you passed the required classes and stamps your record as graduated. However, you are formally and ceremonially considered graduated by the general public, family, ect when you put your cap and gown on and walk the stage and get the diploma. Believing in Jesus and trusting him to save you and thus being saved is on par with the principal stamping your school record as having graduated. Being baptized into the church, for the forgiviness of sin, and the other reasons the CoC gives is the ceremonial and formal point you are acknowledged as having been saved on par with walking the stage and getting your diploma. Tell me, if the principal stamps your record as graduated but you died before walking the stage, did you graduate indeed or are you damned to have been in the 12th grade for all eternity???????

Also, CoC says you have to not only be baptized but must do works of goodness and service faithfully the rest of your life to be saved. But what if you die of a heart attack right soon after being baptized and can't do works of service? Are you still saved.

Jesus also said "unless you drink my blood and eat my flesh you have no life in you". Does this mean you have no eternal life even if you are baptized but do not live long enough to get communion on Sunday?

If we have to be all literal about the importance of being baptized where we will deny one salvation before being baptized but was on the way to get baptized what about those verses about living right and doing good deeds of service and eating Jesus flesh and drinking his blood. If we are so literal about being lost if not having been baptized then the same logic would say you are lost by not doing good deeds by dying right after baptism or not being able to take communion before you died but after baptism.

[Cootie Brown]

As has been noted by BH & others once this hypothetical plan of salvation is placed under a microscope it is revealed to be both complex & ambigeous. As a Christian I think the best alternative is to place all your eggs in the faith only basket.

I would place my hope in Ephesians 2:8-10. If that won't get your saved & keep you saved then you probably won't make the final cut anyway. I think the baptist are closer to being theologically correct than the c of c. Interesting enough the writer of Ephesians doesn't mention Baptism. It seems to me the correct context for baptism is a symbolic ritual of purification much like the original Jewish version, which was most likely copied by Christians.

[KLP]

Arguing extremes and bizarre exceptions to characterize a general command, intention, and pattern is not much use IMO. God has the prerogative to save who He chooses. God's Will does not require Mankind to agree or sign off. Just because a person becomes convinced of Jesus as the Christ just prior to being martyred does not have any bearing on whether of not God intends that Christians serve and do good works for others. This is Junior High stuff IMO.