A place to snark and vent about CoC doctrine and/or our experiences in the CoC. This is a place for SUPPORT and AGREEMENT only, not a place to tell someone their experience and feelings are wrong, or why we disagree with them.
Soladude wrote:Also, I would say that of all the apostles it was Paul who recognized the working of the Spirit the most and one can tell this by reading his narratives related to the Holy Spirit....and most notable is his statement that no one can even say Jesus is Lord but by the Holy Spirit....which of course directly contradicts the perspective in the CofC that a confession is made absent the Holy Spirit since the Holy Spirit doesn't work in bringing one to faith, but rather is seen as a gifted reward after a water baptism.
That's interesting. I didn't know there are some CoC folks who believe that we receive the Holy Spirit in baptism. What I was taught is something along these lines:
Notice that in one instance Paul speaks of our need to “be filled with the Spirit” and in another instance calls it letting “the word of Christ dwell in you richly.” How is one filled with the Spirit? By letting the word of Christ dwell in each of us richly. How does the Holy Spirit dwell in us? By having the word of Christ dwell in us and rule our lives.
There is nothing mystical about what Paul is saying concerning the Holy Spirit, Christ, or the Father dwelling in us. We do not argue that Christ’s presence literally resides in us, causing us to know God’s will and make decisions. We do not argue that the Father’s presence literally resides in us, causing us to know God’s will and make decisions. Why should we change the rules and say such things about the Holy Spirit? I believe the only reason we do so is because of the name of the Holy Spirit. The word “spirit” or “ghost” causes us to speak of the Holy Spirit in mystical terms. But the Holy Spirit is just as much of a person as the Father and the Son. Excerpt from h**ps://westpalmbeachchurchofchrist.com/holy_spirit/indwelling-of-holy-spirit.html
Soladude wrote:Also, I would say that of all the apostles it was Paul who recognized the working of the Spirit the most and one can tell this by reading his narratives related to the Holy Spirit....and most notable is his statement that no one can even say Jesus is Lord but by the Holy Spirit....which of course directly contradicts the perspective in the CofC that a confession is made absent the Holy Spirit since the Holy Spirit doesn't work in bringing one to faith, but rather is seen as a gifted reward after a water baptism.
That's interesting. I didn't know there are some CoC folks who believe that we receive the Holy Spirit in baptism. What I was taught is something along these lines:
Notice that in one instance Paul speaks of our need to “be filled with the Spirit” and in another instance calls it letting “the word of Christ dwell in you richly.” How is one filled with the Spirit? By letting the word of Christ dwell in each of us richly. How does the Holy Spirit dwell in us? By having the word of Christ dwell in us and rule our lives.
There is nothing mystical about what Paul is saying concerning the Holy Spirit, Christ, or the Father dwelling in us. We do not argue that Christ’s presence literally resides in us, causing us to know God’s will and make decisions. We do not argue that the Father’s presence literally resides in us, causing us to know God’s will and make decisions. Why should we change the rules and say such things about the Holy Spirit? I believe the only reason we do so is because of the name of the Holy Spirit. The word “spirit” or “ghost” causes us to speak of the Holy Spirit in mystical terms. But the Holy Spirit is just as much of a person as the Father and the Son. Excerpt from h**ps://westpalmbeachchurchofchrist.com/holy_spirit/indwelling-of-holy-spirit.html
I was taught that Acts 2:38 said everything basically....and therefore the language in that verse "and ye shall receive the gift of Holy Spirit" comes (linear reasoning) at the time of or just after your water baptism and is the operative language of getting the "indwelling" of the Holy Spirit, whatever that is. Then there are other CofC people, like my brother, for instance, who believe there is no such thing as the Holy Spirit anymore, essentially....that the NT is the equivalent replacement of the Holy Spirit for us (the "perfect" which Paul referred to that would come)....
teresa wrote:I was taught that Acts 2:38 said everything basically....and therefore the language in that verse "and ye shall receive the gift of Holy Spirit" comes (linear reasoning) at the time of or just after your water baptism and is the operative language of getting the "indwelling" of the Holy Spirit, whatever that is. Then there are other CofC people, like my brother, for instance, who believe there is no such thing as the Holy Spirit anymore, essentially....that the NT is the equivalent replacement of the Holy Spirit for us (the "perfect" which Paul referred to that would come)....
My understanding of the CoC perspective has always been that the "gift of the Holy Spirit" is salvation. I seem to recall that the justification for that belief came a few verses later, but I can't find it right now.
Interestingly, the CoC I attend is studying the Holy Spirit on Wednesday night. (The reason I'm in ex-CoC is that, even though I still attend, I'm a closet atheist. But I find the theological discussion interesting at times.) Wednesday night on the power point one of the bullets was about how the HS doesn't do "mind control." I asked, then, what the point of praying for wisdom and guidance is.
I actually thought the explanation wasn't bad. Essentially what they're suggesting is that while the HS will influence a person (perhaps by causing them to notice things in scripture, or maybe to make them think to do certain things), the HS doesn't take over and control what a person does or thinks. Think "no such thing as irresistible grace." Someone in the class pointed out that Satan must do the same sorts of things, else he wouldn't be able to tempt a person. Often people seem to imply that the HS only guides people by having inspired the Gospel authors and that after that he was done. The preacher specifically said he does not believe that, and that he believes the HS is still working today.
I thought that position to be consistent and reasonable in light of the other things that are taught in the CoC. Perhaps it helps to answer your questions about what they're teaching.
teresa wrote:I was taught that Acts 2:38 said everything basically....and therefore the language in that verse "and ye shall receive the gift of Holy Spirit" comes (linear reasoning) at the time of or just after your water baptism and is the operative language of getting the "indwelling" of the Holy Spirit, whatever that is. Then there are other CofC people, like my brother, for instance, who believe there is no such thing as the Holy Spirit anymore, essentially....that the NT is the equivalent replacement of the Holy Spirit for us (the "perfect" which Paul referred to that would come)....
My understanding of the CoC perspective has always been that the "gift of the Holy Spirit" is salvation. I seem to recall that the justification for that belief came a few verses later, but I can't find it right now.
Interestingly, the CoC I attend is studying the Holy Spirit on Wednesday night. (The reason I'm in ex-CoC is that, even though I still attend, I'm a closet atheist. But I find the theological discussion interesting at times.) Wednesday night on the power point one of the bullets was about how the HS doesn't do "mind control." I asked, then, what the point of praying for wisdom and guidance is.
I actually thought the explanation wasn't bad. Essentially what they're suggesting is that while the HS will influence a person (perhaps by causing them to notice things in scripture, or maybe to make them think to do certain things), the HS doesn't take over and control what a person does or thinks. Think "no such thing as irresistible grace." Someone in the class pointed out that Satan must do the same sorts of things, else he wouldn't be able to tempt a person. Often people seem to imply that the HS only guides people by having inspired the Gospel authors and that after that he was done. The preacher specifically said he does not believe that, and that he believes the HS is still working today.
I thought that position to be consistent and reasonable in light of the other things that are taught in the CoC. Perhaps it helps to answer your questions about what they're teaching.
Hey, that's interesting Lerk....and encouraging even though it seems such thinking has come slowly over time....maybe change is as slow as molasses in the CofC.......but nevertheless is positive change.....
