Agricola

[Shrubbery]

So then there is no actual recorded or known ancestral links...only probabilities, DNA, and family representations. So no one knows for sure if they are a decedent of any specific tribe. Seems like it would take a lot of chutzpah to claim that one is 100% sure they are a priest and to just trust them on offering sacrifices for the people.

Kind of like the inspiration of each book in the Bible... We have, "Well, the early church fathers thought Hebrews was inspired, so we do as well, even though we have no idea who actually wrote it... Might have been Paul, but he didn't sign his name like he usually does."

[B.H.]

On this sort of thing, I would prefer to say 'mistaken'. People in Jesus' day certainly knew their tribal identities and certainly knew who were priests and who were levites. They saw no good reason to stop maintaining that information simply because the temple was gone. After all, the Temple had been destroyed before.

You're right, "lying" is too strong a word there. I do think the preachers believe the Jews have no record of their lineage and thus can't practice the Old Law. They also believe this was done on purpose by God because they're all supposed to be Christians now. So that's not a lie. They're just wrong.

And I hadn't thought about the destruction of the temple having happened before... the preachers only mention the one in 70 AD, not the earlier destruction. If destruction of the temple is on purpose to stop Jewishness and turn everyone to Christianity, why wasn't the first destruction for stopping Jewishness? Hmmmm...

The first destruction was to punish bad Jews who worshipped idols and committed cruelty, immorality, ect. I read in a book that after the Babylonians got a hold of them the Jews never had a problem with idolatry again on a large scale. God said in the bible somewhere he'd knock the desire for false gods out of the Jews and he sure did.

[agricola]

Actually, the religious reforms of Josiah probably had more to do with it (establishing firmly that God was both one and the only one god) than the Babylonians. The exile did have a huge effect, though, and triggered the production of the Torah as a unified document that could and should be made public - see Ezra.

Most reputable scholars of the Jewish Bible will say that 'the Torah' as a single 'work' can be dated to the period of the exile, ALTHOUGH the final product incorporates and includes mostly pre-existing material, dating back (by that time) centuries. Apparently the priests had maintained written records and written documents all along, and the Temple destruction and exile made them realize how fragile a single collection was, so they took everything and wove it together into one scroll incorporating the material they had, and redacting and editing and working it all into a (more or less) coherent document.

So - basically - things like the law codes, and the historical type stories (Abraham etc) and the Song of the Sea (Miriam's poem) and much of Deuteronomy (maybe all of Deuteronomy) already existed, they weren't all put together into one continuous STORY, which is what 'Torah' is (The Pentateuch). Plus the encounter with Zoroastrianism in Babylon brought up issues not previously considered, so the 'Priestly Source' included NEW material specifically to counter or re-imagine those ideas - Genesis 1 is from the exile period, while Genesis 2 is an OLDER (and more concrete-sounding) narrative, probably a traditional story.

For those interested, get hold of Friedman's The Bible With Sources Revealed (actually the Torah, not the whole Bible) which uses different fonts to show exactly what was written by which source, according to Biblical linguistic scholars. It is generally accepted that there were four or possibly five, major written sources which were collated and edited together, with original material, into a single whole sometime during the exile period. Another good book, also by Friedman, is Who Wrote the Bible, which goes on to speculate about the actual redactor or redactors who turned a collection of material into a single work - along with a fair bit of additional narrative to make the whole thing 'work'.

Then Ezra is the one who LITERALLY 'brought the Torah to Israel' since he - a priest - brought that document with him in the return from Babylon, and instituted the current practice of reading through the entire Torah, aloud, in public, three days a week - Shabbat, and two market days, when plenty of people would be available to hear it.

If it helps, read 'the books of Moses' as 'the books ABOUT Moses', even though the notion that Moses wrote the whole entire Torah was circulating pretty early - it really is hard to justify from the entire text. But there are certainly some indications in the text that Moses wrote SOME things down, and that the priests had those writings in keeping. So I'm willing to think that the Torah today just might - really might - contain some parts actually authored by Moses. Likely only short bits, and probably the boring parts, but still.

[KLP]

So then there is no actual recorded or known ancestral links...only probabilities, DNA, and family representations. So no one knows for sure if they are a decedent of any specific tribe. Seems like it would take a lot of chutzpah to claim that one is 100% sure they are a priest and to just trust them on offering sacrifices for the people.

Kind of like the inspiration of each book in the Bible... We have, "Well, the early church fathers thought Hebrews was inspired, so we do as well, even though we have no idea who actually wrote it... Might have been Paul, but he didn't sign his name like he usually does."

I agree. When there is no actual documentation then a best guess is all that is left. I mean like you said, there are people who really really believe Paul wrote Hebrews. But no one really knows. So yes, I agree with you it is like someone today claiming they are really really directly descended from the tribe of Levi.

[agricola]

People who claim to be descended from Levi actually have EVIDENCE on their side in the form of familial DNA relationships. That is at least SOMETHING beyond 'grandpa said his grandpa said'.

The Jewish people AS A WHOLE have DNA all over the place, due to intermarriage with the locals plus a whole epidemic of systematic rape, particularly in Ukraine/Eastern Russia/Poland, but LEVITES (which include Kohens - priests) routinely show paternal family DNA markers showing common descent from related men, and only a small number of related men, reasonably placed at around 3000 + years ago: The Exodus story is usually set at around 3200 years ago up to 3400 years ago - which is close or close enough.

This is FAR more than some kind of oral tradition alone. It is practical testable information BACKING UP an oral tradition.

Just because something is an oral tradition doesn't mean it is automatically wrong - nor that it is automatically correct either, of course. But a written account of an oral tradition which is within a few generations of the events remembered by the oral tradition should be considered seriously as containing at least some possible validity, even if not perfectly correct.

[agricola]

For the record, though - linguistically - the Song of the Sea in Exodus, and the Song of Deborah in Joshua, are among the most archaic (oldest) parts of the Jewish Bible. Chant and poetry are easier for an oral tradition to preserve and remember, and these songs represent possibly THE oldest sections in the Jewish Bible.

This - of course - has implications for anybody who wants to attack the Exodus story and say it was made up 'later'. The Song of the Sea clearly refers to events from the Exodus story, and is written in genuinely older Hebrew. It is unlikely - perhaps highly unlikely - that a later writer would 'make it up' and think to use 'older Hebrew' especially since a later writer would by highly unlikely to know that there even WAS an 'older Hebrew'. There are, of course, some people who will promote that POV.

[agricola]

The Song of the Sea:

Then Moses and the Israelites sang this song to the Lord:

“I will sing to the Lord,
for he is highly exalted.
Both horse and driver
he has hurled into the sea.

2 “The Lord is my strength and my defense;
he has become my salvation.
He is my God, and I will praise him,
my father’s God, and I will exalt him.
3 The Lord is a warrior;
the Lord is his name.
4 Pharaoh’s chariots and his army
he has hurled into the sea.
The best of Pharaoh’s officers
are drowned in the Red Sea.
5 The deep waters have covered them;
they sank to the depths like a stone.
6 Your right hand, Lord,
was majestic in power.
Your right hand, Lord,
shattered the enemy.

7 “In the greatness of your majesty
you threw down those who opposed you.
You unleashed your burning anger;
it consumed them like stubble.
8 By the blast of your nostrils
the waters piled up.
The surging waters stood up like a wall;
the deep waters congealed in the heart of the sea.
9 The enemy boasted,
‘I will pursue, I will overtake them.
I will divide the spoils;
I will gorge myself on them.
I will draw my sword
and my hand will destroy them.’
10 But you blew with your breath,
and the sea covered them.
They sank like lead
in the mighty waters.
11 Who among the gods
is like you, Lord?
Who is like you—
majestic in holiness,
awesome in glory,
working wonders?

12 “You stretch out your right hand,
and the earth swallows your enemies.
13 In your unfailing love you will lead
the people you have redeemed.
In your strength you will guide them
to your holy dwelling.
14 The nations will hear and tremble;
anguish will grip the people of Philistia.
15 The chiefs of Edom will be terrified,
the leaders of Moab will be seized with trembling,
the people of Canaan will melt away;
16 terror and dread will fall on them.
By the power of your arm
they will be as still as a stone—
until your people pass by, Lord,
until the people you bought pass by.
17 You will bring them in and plant them
on the mountain of your inheritance—
the place, Lord, you made for your dwelling,
the sanctuary, Lord, your hands established.

18 “The Lord reigns
for ever and ever.”

19 When Pharaoh’s horses, chariots and horsemen went into the sea, the Lord brought the waters of the sea back over them, but the Israelites walked through the sea on dry ground.

20 Then Miriam the prophet, Aaron’s sister, took a timbrel in her hand, and all the women followed her, with timbrels and dancing.

21 Miriam sang to them:

Sing to the Lord,
for he is highly exalted.
Both horse and driver
he has hurled into the sea.

Attributed dates: earliest - 13th century BCE (1200-1300 BCE)
'low chronology' folks - 5th century BCE (which requires that somebody was very familiar with - and fluent in - 900 year old Hebrew.

[KLP]

People who claim to be descended from Levi actually have EVIDENCE on their side in the form of familial DNA relationships. ...
This is FAR more than some kind of oral tradition alone. It is practical testable information BACKING UP an oral tradition.

Just because something is an oral tradition doesn't mean it is automatically wrong - nor that it is automatically correct either, of course. But a written account of an oral tradition which is within a few generations of the events remembered by the oral tradition should be considered seriously as containing at least some possible validity, even if not perfectly correct.

I do not discount oral tradition at all. But I didn't realize there are folks that quote an oral tradition of generations back to the tribe of Levi. I would think that must be awesome to witness when that is recounted.

[teresa]

I've been enjoying this interesting conversation.