Held hostage

[Aarin]

I was just talking to a coc person on the phone, and I told her that the God presented by the coc seemed more like an abusive husband.

But yes, I feel so much more free having left the church. When I think about the Bible story at a high level, it just sounds ridiculous. God created man, purposely set him up to fail (knowing he would fail), punished man for the failure of two people, created a torture chamber for anyone who doesn't love him... I'm thinking, this isn't how I parent my kids. That would be called child abuse if a human did it.

So then the person on the phone that I was talking to was telling me to keep seeking the truth (which I said I was), and she kept saying that the Bible is where we need to look. And I was quiet about that. I've got sooooo many problems with the Bible, and the overall picture of God is one of them.

I have to agree with you. Any time I (completely with reason) asked about justifying practice of 'free-will' as used during the Holocaust, no CoC could ever give me a straight-forward answer. It seems completely reasonable to question the presence of God's mercy at the cost of 6.4 million Jews, not even including the number of others slaughtered. My mom was taken from my three sisters and I, all very young, to defend ourselves from a drunk man who couldn't cope with the loss of his wife. If there be a god that gives humans free-will to do that much damage, the one the CoC follow, I want nothing to do with it.

[ena]

I have to agree with you. Any time I (completely with reason) asked about justifying practice of 'free-will' as used during the Holocaust, no CoC could ever give me a straight-forward answer. It seems completely reasonable to question the presence of God's mercy at the cost of 6.4 million Jews, not even including the number of others slaughtered. My mom was taken from my three sisters and I, all very young, to defend ourselves from a drunk man who couldn't cope with the loss of his wife. If there be a god that gives humans free-will to do that much damage, the one the CoC follow, I want nothing to do with it.

The Holocaust was an attempt by Satanic forces to wipe out the Jews because prophesy could not be fulfilled. It was awful but not successful. I have a Jewish friend my age who knows various Holocaust survivors. The last I heard was a friend in his died in his nineties and a survivor. Most adults from WWII are dead and the few left will be soon. I am grateful for those that have been willing to speak out. Even Germans. Many Germans were Nazi party members because it was the thing to do. Not all were die hard Nazi's. This was a problem for denazification. Eisenhower took a whole German town through a body strewn death camp because he did not want them to deny there was a Holocaust. Didn't you recognize the smell. What can you do when the evidence is in front of you. I was in Dachau in 1968. I saw a two bay crematorium with a Jewish Shower. This was a whole room. I was told it had not been used. The crematorium had been used. It looked like coal was used for fire. Germany has plenty of coal. The reason they attacked Russia was because Russia has oil and gas. The inmates could be transported to Triblinka in Poland where there was a well honed killing machine. My friend's grandmother was a Russian Jew who escaped from the Bolsheviks only to get caught by Hitler. She later immigrated to the US. My friend is American. Like many Russian Jews he had black hair. I have know many because Russia allowed Russian Jews to immigrate in the 1990's. From a Russian perspective it helped to solve their Jewish problem. From my perspective it was brain drain as most were programmers. I don't know that God looks at death the same way we do. It could be a beginning rather than an end. I don't know that the dead know anything. Does it matter. Not really. I've been comatose for nearly a week. I enjoyed the rest and the peace that passes all understanding. Time passes and you are not aware. The God that the CoC follows is not God.

[B.H.]

There was a man who ran for mayor or Corsicana back in the 60's that was Jewish and survived one of those camps. He was stuck over there when war broke out and that's how the Germans got him. I never knew him but my dad did. He had the tatoos on his arm.

My first cousin married a woman born in Berlin during the blitz. My aunt was 25 when my dad was born so all of my first cousins on that side of the family were a lot older than me. The woman's father was a member of the SS. They have a bad reputation and deservedly so but he did something good that got him shot. The last year of the war a preacher or priest preached a sermon against Hitler and the man was ordered to burn down the church the priest or preacher worked in. He refused and was shot for it.

[ena]

The woman's father was a member of the SS. They have a bad reputation and deservedly so but he did something good that got him shot. The last year of the war a preacher or priest preached a sermon against Hitler and the man was ordered to burn down the church the priest or preacher worked in. He refused and was shot for it.

When Berlin was falling to the Russians, German boys were used to fight. Many boys were killed by the Germans themselves for not following orders. The Russians had seen German atrocities committed against Russians. They did not spare German women their attention when taking Berlin. I believe the Hitler shot himself in the bunker. The Russians found the burned bodies of him and Eva in a bombed out crater. Gasoline had been thrown on them after death. Hitler was afraid of his body being treated like Musolini being hung on meat hooks after being urinated on. He was shot before. There are those that believe he lived on in South America. Many Germans fled there.

[ena]

If there be a god that gives humans free-will to do that much damage, the one the CoC follow, I want nothing to do with it.

Typical atheist type concern. Maybe you are more comfortable with Atheism. I was for a while where I learned what the Bible isn't. Do you know why God does what he does? Israel exists today because of those atrocities. The western world was shamed into doing more than the Balfore Declaration which carried no weight. The League of Nations promoted a land for Jews. In fact they are accused for occupying land that was once given to them. They even owned Jordan at one time. It was called Transjordan. The problem is that with the passage of time we all have a distorted view. The Ottoman Empire lost much power in WW1 and was gone in 1922. The land was divided up by the colonial powers. Many of the problems today are caused by former colonization. Vietnam was once a French colony. We are acting like a colonial power in Puerto Rico, Afghanistan and South Korea. We have been in Korea for 68 years. Is that free of costs. I don't wonder why we are broke. We are becoming a Banana Republic.

[B.H.]

Concerning the free will argument why evil is allowed--think of this. The Germans violated the Jews free will to do good or evil by gassing them. A mugger violates a person's free will by mugging and stabbing them. The victim's freedom to to good or evil was interfered with by the mugger killing them and taking their money. When King Ahab killed Naboth he was exercising his free will to do evil but in so doing he interfered with Naboth's free will to do good or evil in his life. A policeman stops criminals from exercising their free will by throwing them in jail or killing them. The Germans, the mugger, King Ahab and the police interfere with the free will of thers so what is the big deal about messing with free will after all? Free will is violated all of the time.

[Aarin]

Concerning the free will argument why evil is allowed--think of this. The Germans violated the Jews free will to do good or evil by gassing them. A mugger violates a person's free will by mugging and stabbing them. The victim's freedom to to good or evil was interfered with by the mugger killing them and taking their money. When King Ahab killed Naboth he was exercising his free will to do evil but in so doing he interfered with Naboth's free will to do good or evil in his life. A policeman stops criminals from exercising their free will by throwing them in jail or killing them. The Germans, the mugger, King Ahab and the police interfere with the free will of thers so what is the big deal about messing with free will after all? Free will is violated all of the time.

I think what I can't get through is the CoC line of completely evading the conversation. Sure, a lot of horrific things happen. Children die prematurely of terrible diseases, people are gunned down daily, etc. But the line of CoC dabbing between the OT and NT punishment versus mercy-I just don't understand. Sure, the break down, we were all taught it, we could carry on in theoretical conversation about what we were taught, theological premises of free-will, and more. But I'll never understand a deity that allows such things to happen. Are they, the CoC, not playing God by picking and choosing where mercy is exercised? And if there be a god who does exercise mercy and holds the free-will finger of humanity, I want nothing to do with it.

[ena]

I think what I can't get through is the CoC line of completely evading the conversation. Sure, a lot of horrific things happen. Children die prematurely of terrible diseases, people are gunned down daily, etc. But the line of CoC dabbing between the OT and NT punishment versus mercy-I just don't understand. Sure, the break down, we were all taught it, we could carry on in theoretical conversation about what we were taught, theological premises of free-will, and more. But I'll never understand a deity that allows such things to happen. Are they, the CoC, not playing God by picking and choosing where mercy is exercised? And if there be a god who does exercise mercy and holds the free-will finger of humanity, I want nothing to do with it.

If so opt out. There is plenty of evil in the world. It will increase as we stumble to the end. It has happened before. We do have an unhinged President that thinks Thermonuclear was is possible. The H bomb is an atomic bomb surrounded by a metal hydride. This brings hydrogen in proximity to the atomic bomb. The hydrogen fissions into helium releasing much more energy than Hiroshima. Enola Gay flew with more weight than it was designed for. This will be no picnic. Hot spots are N. Korea, Syria, Iran, Yemen, Turkey and Africa. The news is focused on Trumps obfuscation. He doesn't listen to facts. He irritates easily. He is the worst I have seen in 70 years. I turn 70 in a few weeks. The First President I was aware of was Eisenhower. My parents bought a black and white in 1951 or 52. I remember the original Howdy Doody with Buffalo Bob Smith and Clara Belle who honked a horn. Flash Gordon flew a space ship that really was a model with a sparkler for a rocket. I have seen it in Universal City. The Original Superman was a body builder hung by wires and blown with an industrial fan. I somehow knew that Cecil the Sea Monster was green with a black and write TV. I remember Senator Joseph McCarthy when he was Senator and accusing people of being communist. He was Republican. No surprise there. Today it is less surprising. I changed my voter status to Libertarian. The reason should be obvious.

[faithfyl]

Due to a recent health crisis with my folks, I’ve been spending a lot of time with them at the hospital and home, which means hearing all the same old COC sayings and lots of visitors from their church. It brings up so many different thoughts and questions now that I’m viewing life with an agnostic/atheist viewpoint, but one thought that I remember from my very young days is, doesn’t Christianity feel like you’re being held hostage? I didn’t ask to be born, but once I was I had 2 options, forced to love and obey my captor, or roast for all eternity in Hell. Neither option sounds like a great choice to me.

It's not really a free choice. Go to hell for eternity or worship a certain deity. That's a choice to make, sure, but it's not really a free choice.

[B.H.]

Evil could have been avoided all together when you think about it. God could have made us where we had just as strong a sense of right and wrong as he supposedly does and no one would give into the temptation to do evil.

But he didn't choose to do that.