God loves in "spite of" not "because of"

[GuitarHero]

We are already bad enough.

See, this is what I have a problem with. If we are so wretched and dirty, and God just cannot stand to look at us, then what the hell's the point? That means God was a colossal screw-up at creation, since what he created is obviously so inferior and beneath all consideration. God allegedly made us this way, yet he cannot stand to look at us as we are--yet, we are "in the image of God" according to the very same book.

The idea that we are horrible beings is one of the worst things religion could inflict upon us.

[Grace]

. Work towards perfection while knowing you are not perfect.

I agree there is a subtle difference. We should be the best possible person we can be. I think it goes back to a loving God, not a vengeful God.
There have been conversations here about Coc being afraid of one mistake at the end of one's life sending you to hell. I believe that is where the grace comes in, that God knows a person's heart.

[ena]

We are already bad enough.

See, this is what I have a problem with. If we are so wretched and dirty, and God just cannot stand to look at us, then what the hell's the point? That means God was a colossal screw-up at creation, since what he created is obviously so inferior and beneath all consideration. God allegedly made us this way, yet he cannot stand to look at us as we are--yet, we are "in the image of God" according to the very same book.

The idea that we are horrible beings is one of the worst things religion could inflict upon us.

What religion does is take it to far. That train of thought should lead you away. God helps people that are wrapped in sin. There are many examples. Paul is one. Mary Magdalene was a demoniac at one time. God is bigger than small limited ideas. People can be greater than they once were.

I personally believe that he made man with free will. The problem is that when that is done things can really run amok. I am personally glad not to be a robot. The problem is that intent does not jive with a willful being. You see it in children. Adult humans are children to God. God came to man directly and man wanted a king. He allowed a a king. How well did that work out? He sent a son. How well did that work out? The Christian hope is that the problems will be blown away. The failure is not God's. God could have created robots. Ants and bees would be an animal model.

[ena]

. Work towards perfection while knowing you are not perfect.

I agree there is a subtle difference. We should be the best possible person we can be. I think it goes back to a loving God, not a vengeful God.
There have been conversations here about Coc being afraid of one mistake at the end of one's life sending you to hell. I believe that is where the grace comes in, that God knows a person's heart.

Correct!!! Man does not know what is in another person's heart so cannot judge in all respects.

[GuitarHero]

My contention, ena, is that if God made us with free will, then he doesn't have a leg to stand on to punish us when we use that which he gave us innately.

It's just one of the many things about Christianity that no longer makes sense to me.

[NeverAgain]

God gave us free will. And will send us to hell if we exercise it.

One of the many disconnects with decency or logic that made me realize the validity of atheism.

[baxter]

My contention, ena, is that if God made us with free will, then he doesn't have a leg to stand on to punish us when we use that which he gave us innately.

It's just one of the many things about Christianity that no longer makes sense to me.

The incongruence of most mainstream doctrine of most "churches" regarding so-called "free will" is pointed out by Guitar Hero and Never Again. I agree with their observation.
One cannot teach that God is a loving kind Creator and at the same time a capricious torturer. Such a weird statement is not "faith" because it is self-contradicting.
Moreover I personally (and I am assuming that some rational and loving mainstream Christians would secretly concede this too) have a modicum of faith that God is loving and He clearly has designed our circumstance of birth and those of us born "privileged"(raised in the "church",stable family,mother not a crack whore) in the present age ARE expected to love more,accomplish more,forgive more. And those to whom less is given,they may have a longer and harder road before they joyfully stand in the presence of God.
So how can I feature God as fair and loving without being a self-contradicting doctrinal knucklehead? My own take is that the ONLY way that there can be pain and a Loving Creator is that in some kind of God way the very most horrible behavior and event will,in this age or an age to come,be turned around so that there will be more joy and happiness than would have been possible had the horrible event not happened. And yes I believe that every knee will joyfully bow. And God will not keep some ghetto called "Hell" (a pagan word and a pagan political concept).
Once again,painfully long entry. But next entry I would like to explain why I have difficulty being an "atheist" BECAUSE a 14 ounce birth weight premature crack baby spends it's entire 6 month life in a warming crib with multiple blood sticks,endotracheal tube,loud noise,multiple gut,eye and brain procedures then dies. It cannot be a random series of events in a random universe. The ONLY possible explanation for any rational Christian is that the baby will, in an age to come, be inconceivably more joyful than she would have been had the sad events not happened. And yes I am an emergency room trauma specialist and I have known and seen tragedies for decades. And shed bitter tears

[ena]

My contention, ena, is that if God made us with free will, then he doesn't have a leg to stand on to punish us when we use that which he gave us innately.

It's just one of the many things about Christianity that no longer makes sense to me.

You can choose for God or against God. He left the choice up to you. The way he responds depends on your choice.
Otherwise I don't worry because I don't have too. People that choose for God don't have to worry. No amount of worry can save you. If you chose against God then you are his enemy. Worry!!!!!!! Quite simple.

[NeverAgain]

Ena, that is insulting, ridiculous, offensive nonsense. You sound like the worst overbearing fundamentalist Campbellites I escaped from 30 years ago. Self righteousness like this is tiresome.

The assumption that any atheist made a choice "for" or "against" god simply shows your limitations and lack of understanding about atheism. Since I don't believe in god at all, I have not made a choice to be "against" that concept. I just dismiss it. And how can I be an "enemy" of something I don't even think exists? And assumptions that atheists have no morals, ethics or concepts of right or wrong, which is a short step away from your nonsensical post, is as assertion that I long ago tired of refuting.

Believe me, I "worry" infinitely less than any religious person who frets about an invisible, voiceless, capricious being deciding whether or not I get to "go to heaven" and about observing made-up rituals and unnecessary rules.

[baxter]

"You can choose for God or against God. He left the choice up to you. The way he responds depends on your choice."

Ena,forgive my long entry above but I was trying to express,and please read it again,that your paragraph still reflects traditional Christian doublespeak. I years of hearing and echoing this "the way he responds depends on your choice" in the Church of Christ and other self-proclaimed "sound Bible- believing" groups. So "I can count on God.....IF HE can count on ME? Huh?

Listening to this annoying Christian doublespeak probably compels some to declare themselves atheists. So if a "fundamentalist" tries to tell an atheist that God created billions of "enemies" ill equipped to exert their free within a tiny period of time or they will remain his enemies in some kind of permanent immortal soul ghetto....well that atheist would be 100% correct in saying such a "merciful" God has just one excuse-----that he doesn't exist.

Please contemplate and reconsider my last post. The illustration of the premature crack baby in this cruel world paradoxically points me AWAY from atheism for the reasons I stated in that post,that is that the bad will be turned around into something amazingly wonderful and in spite of the hideous horror,things will be better than they would have been without the horror. Does anybody out there have any sense of this?

Back to "free will". God created us with varying circumstances and thus inextricably with varying degrees of "free will". Ultimately whom God rejects he will seduce back and the obvious gist of sacred texts and gospels is that the only free will one ultimately exerts is to turn back to God. In this age or the ages to come.