a coc theological question

[Struggler]

Sorry to hear about your stepmother. I hope you have many good memories of her.

And yes, I know Woodbine Funeral Home, both locations.

To answer your question, I don't know.

[agricola]

Thanks Struggler. I think there is no consensus, and people don't like thinking about it, so they haven't argued it to death - so to speak.

[B.H.]

Agricola, what does Jewish theology say about the afterlife of your stepmother?

[agricola]

Oh - conventionally, people who are dead are 'asleep', and God will remember them to life at the End of Days, and then there is Judgement, etc. One big difference is that souls aren't innately immortal in Judaism (unlike Christianity, which took their ideas on this topic straight out of Greek beliefs) so there is no need to 'find a place' for absolutely everybody.
God 'remembers' the righteous and resurrects their bodies and RETURNS their soul to them. Truly evil people, so what, they are dead. God doesn't bother to resurrect them in the first place.

Souls in Judaism are really sparks of God's essence - they contain all that is 'you' but they are not independent of 'you'. Unlike Christianity, a human being is not a body 'with' a soul, but a human being is a composite body/soul. The body is mortal and dies. The soul (part) is a bit like - well, have you ever watched a fire? And you see flames flicker up and fall down and become re-absorbed in the fire? Well God is the fire and souls are the flickering flames. When the mortal body dies, the soul is re-absorbed.
God keeps 'you' in God's memories. At the End of Time, God 'remembers' each and every one of us, and resurrects us - body and soul.

So she's fine.

Although - seriously - I only know this sort of stuff BECAUSE I was a Christian, and Christians worry about it. Jews don't worry about it.

Plenty of Jews believe:
a) Judaism doesn't have an afterlife (wrong)
b) Whatever Christianity believes, Judaism believes the opposite (wrong)
c) people live on only in the memories of their loved ones (sort of wrong, but common and okay)
d) people die and their souls go straight to heaven (wrong, but nobody cares particularly)

I think that's the main difference - Judaism does have an afterlife, and end of time, resurrection and judgment day - that's where Christianity GOT those things - but Judaism doesn't place very much day-to-day importance on those ideas (or not any longer, anyway). It's kind of given, that these things are God's bailiwick, and we don't need to bother much about them. Isn't God merciful? Isn't God just? Then what do we have to worry about? Our attention is more rightfully placed on our lives here and now, in 'this world', which is 'the world of action', and not on olam ha'ba (the world to come/the afterlife) which is in God's hands.

You'll find a higher level of interest and discussion on this sort of topic in the various Hasidic groups, which tend toward the mystical approach in general.

Also of course, Judaism doesn't have the doctrine of Original Sin to worry about, so it isn't like anybody actually NEEDS 'saving'. There's nothing to be saved FROM. 'Salvation' in Jewish terms refers mainly to the survival of the Jewish PEOPLE in this world, not to the hypothetical theological soul-saving of individuals in THAT world (the world to come).

However, the general principle is 'the righteous of all nations have a place in the world to come'. So she's fine. Asleep in the dust, or sitting around in heaven's Waiting Room, she's fine.

[OneStrike_ur_out]

I have always scratched my head about this one. Sometimes, the cOC will say that the dead sleep until the final judgement. Sometimes they will say that we die and then we wake up in our eternal destination. But, then they say that paradise and Hades aren't the final stops. Because after that comes the judgement. But...if someone went to one of those places, then what happens at the judgement.? Does God say "I made a mistake, I wasn't supposed to send you to paradise. Here, off to Hell with you". Or vice versa. Or..does God say at the judgement "I had it right the first time"? In which case, why would a soul need to go to one of these places if the final judgement is coming? The idea of a soul going to paradise or Hades implies that there will be two judgements. One time, someone said that that was the case. That there in fact would be two judgements. The one at death and the final one. But...would the one at death differ from the final one? And if someone ended up in Hades, does that mean that there is still a chance that they could make it into Heaven at the time of the final judgement? Or, could someone who went to paradise still mess around and end up getting drop kicked to Hell at the final judgement? And is there any sin at these waiting places? But, there are a good many in the cOC who already know that they are entering the pearly gates and thus, there is nothing for them to think about other than what they will be doing once they arrive.

[ena]

So tell me, those who know - because my dear husband sat through what was - to him - a rather bewildering service - and he asked - exactly what DOES your standard, mainstream coc teach about 'going to heaven'? Immediately? After Judgment Day?

Most churches do not know about the physical reign of the Messiah for 1000 years. This detailed in Revelation and Jewish literature as well. The Church of Christ finds Revelation a puzzle and ignores the old testament. This is in spite much Jesus talk about his kingdom. He was talking about a literal kingdom with him ruling from Jerusalem. Israel was nearly destroyed from a battle at the end of this age. The tribulation is at the end of this world. It is rebuilt by God because there were nukes involved. Jesus returns to save Israel as his message was to Israel. 12 apostles one for each tribe. The lost ten tribes are not entirely lost some are filtering back to Israel even today. Some know what tribes they are from and some don't. Judgement is at the end of 1000 year reign. You are either part of the kingdom. Or you are part of the second resurrection. Those of the second resurrection are thrown into the lake of fire. God has said vengeance is mine and the wages of sin are death. Jesus said it is as easy as separating sheep from goats. You don't go immediately to heaven. Most things translated as Hell in the king James Bible does not literally mean that. There are shades of meaning found in the original language. Some books of the new Testament were written in Hebrew. I've been aware that Matthew was for years. They were found in Hebrew archives by Nehemia Gordon an American Jew. He had a father that was a Rabbi. He is very familiar with Rabbinical Judaism. He is a Karaite Jew. This a Torah only Jew. He will talk to Christians with the agreement, "You don't try to convert me and I will not try to convert you." I love the humor. He sees that Jesus constantly violated Pharisaical rules. When changed water into wine he did it stone water pots that were to be only used for water. Nehemia believes that Jesus would fit into the Karaite community.

[ena]

My mother always throws in the fact that Jesus said to the thief on the cross, “TODAY you will be with me in Paradise.”

Jesus serves as judge. You age are judged to have accepted Christ as messiah or are judged under the law. There are two types of resurrection. The 1st type lives in the kingdom of Christ for 1000 years the second resurrection gets the lake of fire. You do not immediately go to heaven. I was semicomatose for a week. Time flies when you unaware. It is actually relaxing.

[ena]

Just more proof, IMO, the Bible has human origins.

To me it just says that we all look for what we want to see. It doesn't prove or disprove anything. Could be just a misunderstanding or misinterpretation.

Yes, Ivy that has happened many times. Christian Gentiles translating Hebrew causes many problems because of lack of knowledge of a Hebrew culture. In the New Testament it is the lack of a second temple culture. A additional problem is that Jesus believed the written Torah. Not the Rabbinical additions. He went out of he way to defy them. When he made water into wine, he did it in water pots that were only supposed to be used for water. He defiled them. They were specified by the Pharisees not God. The pot might be specified in one of the Talmuds. I only know of two. The Jerusalem Talmud and the Babylonian Talmud. There may be others. The Talmud contain Rabbinical teachings.

[agricola]

That notion that Jesus will rule a thousand years and THEN Judgement is 'pre-millenialism' and the coc is dead set against that idea, in my experience. It is not a universal Christian idea.

t

he premillennialist view is not shared by all Christians. Mainline denominations such as Eastern Orthodox, Anglican, and Catholic are generally amillennial and interpret this passage of Revelation as pertaining to the present time, when Christ reigns in Heaven with the departed saints; such an interpretation views the symbolism of Revelation as referring to a spiritual battle rather than a physical battle on earth. Amillennialists do not view the millennium mentioned in Revelation as pertaining to a literal thousand years, but rather as symbolic, and see the kingdom of Christ as already present in the church beginning with the Pentecost in the first book of Acts.

Premillennialism is often used to refer specifically to those who adhere to the beliefs in an earthly millennial reign of Christ as well as a rapture of the faithful coming before (dispensational) or after (historic) the Great Tribulation preceding the Millennium. For the last century, the belief has been common in Evangelicalism according to surveys on this topic.[1] Amillenialists do not view the thousand years mentioned in Revelation as a literal thousand years but see the number "thousand" as symbolic and numerological.

Premillennialism is distinct from the other views such as postmillennialism which views the millennial rule as occurring before the second coming.

(from the Wiki article)

I do remember that the mainstream plain vanilla suburban coc I grew up in, in Nashville, was firmly a-millenialist and anti-rapture, viewing both premillenialism and the 'rapture' and 'tribulation' to be artsy-farcy notions found among the ignorant and, of course, Pentecostals.

I do not know - and did not then - what Pentecostals ACTUALLY believed on any of those topics.

[B.H.]

There are some, very few, cocs that are premillenial. Not very many. I never saw much in premillenialism. Too much theory and nothing of substance.