Explaining Islam_new topic

[B.H.]

Agricola,

We dont believe the prophets were perfect. Solomon put away his horses because it got where they distracted him from thinking about holy things too much. Abraham was righteous in all but one thing. He prayed for his father who was an idolater who would not forsake his false gods . Abraham had been told by Allah doing such will do no good in affecting their final fate. Noah was rebuked by Allah for being concerned about saving a wicked son who ended up dying in the flood. Prophet Muhammed was rebuked a few times for various things. One was giving a rich man his attention when a poor man wanted it and needed it more. Prophets were very good men but they were not perfect.

We also have prophets mentioned in the Quran not found in the Bible like Hud, Shu'aib, and Dul Quarnayn.

[Ivy]

No, we think it is silly.

Why "silly"? It's a doctrine that some believe in and embrace...not silly to them.

[B.H.]

Sorry I got off topic! Agri, I did read through your info.
Interesting that the story of Abraham has him attempting to sacrifice Ishmael. I had heard this before.
B.H., are you going to do a pilgrimage to Mecca?

One day I hope to.

[Moogy]

Sorry I got off topic! Agri, I did read through your info.
Interesting that the story of Abraham has him attempting to sacrifice Ishmael. I had heard this before.
B.H., are you going to do a pilgrimage to Mecca?

One day I hope to.

I read the pilgrimage was much smaller this year because of COVID. Immigration Visas were denied to many who had hoped to complete their pilgrimage this year, so many of the pilgrims were Saudis this year.

[agricola]

No, we think it is silly.

Why "silly"? It's a doctrine that some believe in and embrace...not silly to them.

I wasn't asked what OTHER people think. I was asked what Judaism/Jews think.
We think it is silly. How can a baby be guilty? It hasn't DONE anything yet!

[agricola]

BH I've been told by other Muslims that the prophets were all of them 'perfect'.

Back in my college and grad school days, I took Arabic, I read the Qur'an (in translation) and I knew a bunch of folks from various parts of the Middle East. I dated a guy from Iran fairly seriously one summer. We played a lot of racketball (like squash, but different). He was a geophysicist.

My accent in Modern Standard Arabic was great. Everyone could understand me.

Nobody but news announcers actually SPEAKS Modern Standard Arabic. Everyone understood me just fine, and I didn't understand anybody else.

We learned useful phrases like 'the government of Kuwait is a sheikhdom'. We did NOT learn useful phrases like 'where is the toilet?' or 'I would like to see a doctor'.

[B.H.]

Well, all the people who you talked to I believe are wrong. I have several translations of the Quran in English. I do not know Arabic, but they do all imply the prophets had their faults.

I hope I wasnt rude in my earlier reply.

[ena]

But doesn’t the COC baptize “in the Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost”?

My CoC did not talk about the Trinity. My father did talk about the Godhead which is similar. The Trinity was later a way of explaining the Nicean Creed. The Catholic/Orthodox churches split in 1054 CE over specifics of the Trinity. I personally see Jesus as a human extension of God not as fully God and fully man. The difference is not great. Jesus and the father are of one mind or same thinking. The Human Jesus did not want to go to the cross and prayed for release. He finally accepted God's will because it was a necessary final sacrifice for man's sin. The wages of sin is death in the absolute sense. You can escape your fate by accepting Jesus as your messiah or keeping the law. Animal sacrifices were a covering for sin for the Children of Israel. Jesus was the last effective sacrifice. As far as I know there are not sacrifices today by the Children of Israel. Samaritans do sacrifice. They claim they are Jews. They do not worship in Jerusalem but on mount Gerizim. They have an ancient Torah but have made over 200 changes to it for the few that are left. As I understand it they are heavily inbred and have trouble with birth defects. This is a genetic problem. Sacrifices ended in 70 CE with the fall of the 2nd Temple under Titus. Jesus alluded to it. He said one stone lie on another. The result is that the location of the Temple is disputed today. You can look up third temple to find out. There are disputes between Christians and Jews about where. I have seen them on youtube. The Wailing Wall is seen by most Jews as near the site. I don't have a dog in this fight. I suspect the 1st Temple was on a threshing purchased by David for Solomon to build on. I don't know where the 2nd Temple was built relative to the first. Nearly 2,000 years without a temple has changed Judaism and Jewish thought. The temple feasts could not be done? There are more feasts than passover. The second Temple period is unique. Sort of like the Church of Christ rebuilding the 1st century. Total fraud. They did not have an agreed on New Testament. Was the first communion leavened or unleavened bread. Was it wine or grape juice. I know they used wine. Jesus was killed by the Romans the day before passover. This is the final moment to kill lambs for passover. He is referred to as the Lamb.

[agricola]

Well, all the people who you talked to I believe are wrong. I have several translations of the Quran in English. I do not know Arabic, but they do all imply the prophets had their faults.

I hope I wasnt rude in my earlier reply.

No not a bit. I think when we (Westerners) read the accounts in the Qu'ran, we think they are 'wrong', but even so, most of my Muslim friends told me that everything a prophet did was correct, no matter what it looks like to us. I have some issues with that notion, obviously!

So I think you should tell us more about Islam, because there are a lot of misconceptions.

[ena]

My accent in Modern Standard Arabic was great. Everyone could understand me.

Nobody but news announcers actually SPEAKS Modern Standard Arabic. Everyone understood me just fine, and I didn't understand anybody else.

Common problem. I know some Spanish. Mexicans speak it but with a different accent and different short cuts. With friends they used familiar forms which modify things. German is much the same. In the US you are taught high German not low German. The people speak low German and they use contractions. They can understand you but you have trouble understanding them. Hebrew has changed in how it is written. Ancient Hebrew is written different from modern. American's use slang. Every decade has it's own slang. Dig! 1950's beatnik. I had a Chinese friend who spoke English but did not get slang meanings. I had a Vietnamese who was ordering off a food truck. He was jabbering and jabbering a out pops the English word, hot dog. I asked him why? He said, "There is no equivalent." They did a hot dog burrito. It was good.