Ask about Judaism

[agricola]

I wrote a few posts about 'the messiah' early in this thread - I'll grab some relevant pieces since the topic came up again -

Modern Judaism -

orthodox POV: the messiah will be a real person who will restore Jewish rule in Israel, bring all the Jews back to Israel, and there will be universal peace during his lifetime.
conservative POV: what the orthodox said, but we don't really talk about it, and you don't have to believe that exactly because -
liberal POV: there won't be an actual PERSON messiah, but at the end of days we will have a messianic TIME of universal peace, etc.

Basically, Jesus fails on two points a) claiming to be a divinity (totally impossible) and b) he didn't accomplish ANY of the expected tasks of the messiah.

The messiah is supposed to be a direct line male descendent of David, but most folks agree that if some Jewish guy comes along and does all the things the messiah is predicted to do, we will certainly decide he is or absolutely MUST be a direct line descendant of David, whether we can prove it or not.

[agricola]

About the messiah?

We barely bother with it at all. It has relatively little to do with our lives, and it is not (and hasn't been for a very long time) truly central to Jewish identity.

You can attend synagogue for a year, and never hear anything in particular about the messiah, unless you actually bring the topic up and ask a question - it is kind of a 'given', and 'oh yeah, that' kind of topic.

Don't get me wrong - Judaism is definitely 'messianic' in the sense that 'waiting for the messiah' is part of the basic fabric - BUT:
a) there isn't terribly much we need to DO about the coming of the messiah
b) we tend to be suspicious of people claiming to BE the messiah.

So I guess: cautious waiting?

Some of the more esoteric of the hasidic (mystically minded orthodox) groups do focus more on the messiah than mainstream Judaism, but even there it is more of a 'wait and see' with a bit more of 'prepare for' involved. The messiah ('the' being: the final one) will naturally be a male Jew, who will be quite extraordinary as a person (but will still be a person) and the messianic period will be a time of great peace in the world, until he gets old and dies. And THEN 'the end'.
But you don't see hardly any speculation about that at all within Judaism - the End of Time etc is just something that will inevitably come. We don't have to worry about it, or look for signs of it, or do anything about it -

Maybe because we don't have a 'hell' concept? That could remove a lot of the angst, certainly.

By the way, we don't have a 'hell' concept.

[agricola]

So we don't focus very much on expectations of the messiah. Sure it gets MENTIONED - like in children's classes it gets mentioned. And if you actually pay attention to the liturgy, you'll see plenty of expectations of end times, except mostly that isn't 'messiah': that stuff is all 'God'.

And we are quite clear on the fact that 'the messiah' is definitely not God.

'The Messiah' doesn't save us - God saves us.
'The Messiah' doesn't judge us - God judges us.
'The Messiah' doesn't create miracles - God creates miracles.

and so on.

Here's a couple of 'messiah' related stories from the Tradition:

From the Talmud:
Rabbi Yochanan Ben Zakkai said… If you have a sapling in your hand, and someone says to you that the Messiah has come, stay and complete the planting, and then go out to greet the Messiah. (Avot de Rabbi Nathan, 31b)
(dates from near the time of the Bar Kochba rebellion)


From a traditional joke:
Yankel, a poor Jew, is given employment by the Jewish community. His friend Mottele asks him about it.

Yankel explains: 'I am paid one ruble a month and my job is to sit on the main road and watch for the coming of the messiah'.
Mottele says: 'That isn't very much!'
Yankele responds: 'No, but it's a permanent position.'

[Scott]

Years ago when I worked in NYC there was a group of people who would preach on the corner and claimed to be decendents of a black tribe of Israel. They were entertaining and would yell at me because I shaved, among other things. I always assumed they were bogus. Am I correct on that assumption?

[agricola]

Not bogus - that is, Black Hebrews are a real thing - but not Jewish either. There is a small group of them living in Israel in a kind of commune (like a kibbutz but not affiliated with the actual kibbutz organization (that's a thing)). They would like to claim to be Jews but the Israeli courts don't agree. Mostly harmless. They follow what they understand to be 'Biblical Law' and obligate themselves to their interpretation of it.

The beard thing is a commandment for Jews (you shall not 'round the corners of your beard') but it doesn't apply to NON-Jews! Feel free to shave.

However, there ARE actual 'black Jews'. There are Jews of every ethnicity on earth. We're tribal, but not exclusively so. Legitimate conversion is a real thing, too.

[Scott]

I didn't know you could convert. I brought a few guys from the Jewish club at my school once to a Coc Bible study. I thought I remember them telling us otherwise.

When I was dating my wife who is an immigrant from Colombia, S.A. another Colombian who lived in her apartment complex was Jewish. That struck me as strange, but I guess I was stereotyping Hispanics as Catholic.

[agricola]

It's just lengthy and time consuming, and isn't at all a necessity of any kind. There's no prizes for being Jewish when it comes to god-relationships. Gentiles are perfectly legitimate as gentiles or pagans or atheists or what-have-you.

[agricola]

You brought guys from a Jewish club to a coc service?? wow. Talk about culture shock.

Anyway - yes, people can (and do) convert to Judaism. There isn't any kind of national database or something like that, but I see estimates ranging from a few hundred annually to low thousands (annually). Once a person completes the conversion process, that person is considered just a Jew, not a 'convert' (at least, that is the way it is supposed to work - there are always a few jerks out there, of course).

Conversion to Judaism isn't an intellectual assent to certain theological or doctrinal points, however. It is far more like becoming a citizen of another country, or becoming adopted by a new family. So most usually, the whole process takes at least a year of study and 'showing up' and the potential convert is expected to do concrete things indicating a firm desire to BELONG - he/she should attend a synagogue, become engaged with the community, join things, change their daily routine to include 'Jewish things' (what that may be will depend on the local community the candidate wishes to be a part of) and so forth.

Then - get this - you have to take an exam! It is either oral, or combined written oral. You have to demonstrate knowledge of Jewish law, religious beliefs, history and customs. You have to convince the judging panel (there are three) that you are genuinely serious about this action, and that you understand what you are doing. Conversion is a one-way process: once you are accepted, you are IN and you can't leave (clue 'Hotel California' now) as a Jew. You can be a lousy Jew, but you are stuck with being Jewish forever.

I went before the 'court' (called a bet din) about thirty years ago. And about five years ago, I sat on a bet din myself as one of the three judges.

[Scott]

I always thought that being Jewish was not only a religous thing but genetic also.
As far as culture shock I think we had more culture in common than different.

[agricola]

Trust me, a coc service and a synagogue service are - extremely not alike.

Anyway -

There is a genetic factor of course -

But really, when I said 'becoming a citizen of another country' that was a REAL analogy to converting to Judaism. How does a person become a citizen of the US?

He or she is born to citizens of the US (or has at least one parent who is a citizen) - OR, he or she applies to become a citizen, studies and takes a test, and becomes a naturalized citizen.

After becoming a naturalized citizen, that person is a citizen in every way, just like someone born to it. Probably the naturalized citizen actually knows MORE about American history and government than the 'born citizen' does, because the 'convert' had to study and pass a test, and the 'born citizen' didn't. There are very few things the naturalized citizen can't do that a born citizen can - like run for president. Otherwise, there is no legal difference.

(A convert to Judaism can't - or isn't supposed to - marry a Cohen (hereditary priest), and a convert can't BECOME a Cohen or Levite - those are purely hereditary classes of people.)

Just like a naturalized citizen, a convert has to study; a born Jew can slide by on ancestry alone - not ideal, but not that rare either.

It is also true that a few Jewish communities (notably Syrian origin Jews living in the Chicago-Detroit area) don't 'do' conversion nor does that community accept converts. That's their right but they are not the norm.

Traditional Jewish law, and the standard adhered to by all orthodox and most Conservative/Traditional communities, is that someone is 'born Jewish' if their mother was a Jew (either both parents, or the mother, but not the father only), or if they converted according to the traditional standard practice (which involves study, the examination by the court, immersion in a mikvah, and circumcision for males).

Fairly recently, the Reform board of rabbis in the US changed that traditional practice to include people with a Jewish FATHER also, as long as the child was raised exclusively practicing Judaism. That set of a storm of protest about dividing the worldwide Jewish community, by the way.

None of the orthodox groups and few Conservatives would agree with the Reform decision, and if someone with a Jewish father and non-Jewish mother wanted to join those communities, in most all cases, that person would actually have to go through the conversion process first (which usually pisses them off, understandably).

I do see a lot of folks describe themselves as 'half Jewish' or 'a quarter Jewish', but that really isn't a thing, religiously speaking. You are either in or you aren't.

But the genetic component is why you run across Jews who know zilch, and Jews who are Buddhist, or Jews who are atheists - just like a US citizen doesn't have to know much, or vote ever, or otherwise 'prove' their citizenship, a Jew can still be a Jew without doing anything or much of anything about 'Judaism'. There is a big 'genetic' (call it' historical traditional cultural') tie of 'belonging' involved in being a Jew.

About the only thing that will really get a Jew out of 'the tribe' is converting to Christianity. THEN, most Jews are willing to cut ties and declare such a person no longer a Jew. It is very easy to be a Jewish atheist though! There's LOTS of those!