For Agnostics/Atheists Only - Share your journey

[agricola]

Ideally (ideally) New Paths would be the place to explain yourselves to others and clarify misconceptions. I understand that it is not the easiest thing to do for a small minority. If you need or want self-validation, then a private group might provide that. If you want a private corner in order to bash the religious people and snigger about how stupid they are (which, honestly, is what quite a few of your guys' posts look like) then a private group would certainly be the place to go. Or an atheist website altogether where there would be a lot more people - I think BH (yes, our BH) knows of one and posts there.

I will tell teresa. It is ultimately up to her and Petros, and I don't know for sure if this has been tried in the past or not, which it may have been.

[NeverAgain]

Well, GH, as you anticipated in your very first post on this thread, it hasn't lasted very long at all. Too bad. But no surprise.

Agricola has given us yet another, Chapter LXVIII or so, of what the rules, expectations, guidelines and/or intent of this or that thread might be. Does anyone even understand these people anymore? It's past the point of just f**king ridiculous. Threads are moved, rules are changed to suit one person, titles of threads are changed (as if that matters), entire threads are deleted, and messages are edited (including one of mine on this very thread), guidelines change willy-nilly or need constant definition and redefinition.

I finally understand what is happening here. This is not really a Church of Christ support group. Look at the welcome-to-the-board history and see how many, many, many people try and come here for support, and how very, very, very few of them remain, ever post and really ever get any help at all. Most drop away. This is a group for a very select handful of old-time out-of-touch posters to jabber at each other.

Those who remain are one overbearing troll, one woman who seems to think she is called to be the verbose and pedantic star of a real-life Yentl movie, a few doggedly determined to have some kind of real discussion (but slapped down repeatedly), an entertaining comedian who claims to be a Muslim (I'm not so sure of that; he might just like chain yanking), and a handful of people who optimistically try and post on subjects here and there before finally giving up without a word. GH tried to have this agnostic/atheists only thread, just one thread, under what were then the "rules" (apparently they change and morph at a whim), and it was hijacked, not this time by the usual suspect (who, to his credit, did not crash it), but by Agricola. Go figure. Sorry, GH, you were never going to be allowed to have that discussion here.

But here is the most important part of this rant: The shame of this is not that this tiny group has their own personal fiefdom. The shame of it is that when you Google "ex church of christ" looking for a support group, you get directed here. People come, looking for help or support or a discussion of what is going on in their lives. They don't get it. People long out of the CofC and still suffering the repercussions of the trauma that toxic denomination. We have a chance to really help people who went through what we did, and that opportunity is being lost. And the fault is the mismanagement of this site by obtuse board administrators and moderators.

I have had enough. Several of you have sent me personal messages wondering if I would finally get fed up, and I have. Agricola's ridiculous message just now in and of itself might seem like yet another stupid refinement of what these treads are supposed to be, as if anyone could possibly understand them at this point. But it is the last straw. I regret that this site has no value whatsoever as a support board, but I will no longer be a part of it.

[teresa]

The one overarching rule for the whole board is that we NOT bash the beliefs and views of other members of this Support Group. To me that is a given, since the purpose of the board is to support one another, so it has taken me this long to realize that others do not understand that.

So for example, creating a post to say that fundamentalists are stupid (regardless if true or not), is not appropriate for this board. There is one fundamentalist who participates on this board (as far as I can tell), so out of politeness folks should avoid making derogatory comments about fundamentalists. And since there are atheists who participate on the board, creating a derogatory thread about atheists would also be rude. Instead, threads can focus on sharing one's journey, the scientific basis of evolution, that kind of thing.

I think that most of the folks currently participating on this board are skeptics, but I could be wrong. My concern is that the rudeness of a handful of skeptics/atheists have made the board an unsafe place for fundamentalists. It seems to me that some or many folks leaving the CoC will be fundamentalists (at least to begin with), and when they come here looking for support they will find people calling fundamentalists stupid. I am not a fundamentalist, myself.

My efforts in the past to create separate forums for believers and skeptics to solve their conflicts did not help. It polarized the groups even more. And I think that a private forum would increase that polarization. I think that the only thing that might help is if we start to see each other as the life-sized broken people that we are, each trying to meet our universal human needs for acceptance, community, and respect -- regardless if we are atheists or fundamentalists.

[agricola]

the TalkFreethought Discussion Board is a site for agnostics/atheists to discuss topics.

http://talkfreethought.org/forum.php

[teresa]

overbearing troll...verbose and pedantic star of a real-life Yentl movie...an entertaining comedian who claims to be a Muslim

Too much name-calling.

[teresa]

By creating forum rules that prevent atheists from discussing the cognitive bias and ignorance of fundamentalist you create a system where fundamentalists can say all kids of crazy crap to an atheist but atheist has no means to respond without violating forum rules.

I totally disagree. That's like saying you can't have a debate over creation versus evolution without making personal comments about your opponent. Of course you can. All you have to do is present the evidence and let it speak for itself. If folks are not convinced by the evidence you present, making comments about a creationist's ignorance and/or cognitive dissonance will surely not convince them or anyone else.

Now it may be you feel the need for someone to validate your perception of fundamentalists -- but that can't happen on this board. Since this is a Support Group, the idea is that we low-key our differences and focus on supporting one another. There are other places to have your perception validated, if you feel a need to do so, like the board BH mentioned, or PMs to others of like-mind.

I think there are ways to turn a "you" statement into an "I" statement so it doesn't come across as rude. One could say, for example, "When I evaluated the inerrant scripture hypothesis, I found the evidence and logic clear and overwhelming leading to only one sound conclusion. That conclusion is......" You talk about yourself, not about the other person.

Another communication strategy is to allow the other person to have the last word. It's polite, and once we have presented our evidence, nothing more needs to be said. The evidence is there for the person (and others) to consider if and when they are ready. And chances are the same topic will come up again at a later time to be considered again.

[teresa]

The problem is a fundamentalist never says oh ok, nice evidence but lets just agree to disagree. They employ a wide variety of rhetorical tactics (mostly unknowingly) to obfuscate the issue and mask their lack of evidence and logic.

Why is that a problem? The board isn't here to convert folks to one view or another. Why not just let them be wrong?

[Ashes]

I became an agnostic/atheist as a result of the thread posted by B.H. about Matt Dillahunty visiting a Church of Christ. That led me to a series of light bulb moments.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FTXN5nOstRs It was Richard Dawkins' statement starting at 2:50 in this clip that really finalized it for me.

[Cootie Brown]

I just spent some time reading all the posts. I will say this first, I've been active and inactive on this site since 2005 when I left the c of c. The last time I stopped being active was around the time I accepted the reality that I was no longer a believer. I found another web site that is specifically for people who have left Xanity. I didn't return to this site for several years after that.

I will also note that I have no ax to grind with Teresa or Acricola. I can honestly say I like both of them and I absolutely admire Agricola's vast knowledge of theology. Over the years I have learned much from her posts. I left after Agricola deleted one of my post. I wasn't angry with her, she was just following the rules and I wasn't mostly because I don't agree with many of the rules or the religious PC environment that seems to be the basis of a lot of the rules.

Anyway, back to my story. After years of being inactive I decided to come back just to check it our again. I discovered the site was no longer active so I figured it had been closed down. The other site where I am active is Ex-Christian.net. Well whenever I type that name into a search engine Ex-Church of Christ comes up in the list too. I accidently clicked on Ex-Church of Christ one day and discovered the site was back up and running again. I discovered from reading the board the old site apparently crashed.

I logged on again a few months ago and posted some thoughts only to discover what others have noted in this topic that being the rules are problematic, as I previously noted. I was feeling nostalgic and logged on yesterday and made a long post started by Zeek who was announcing his departure and the reasons for leaving. I could definitely relate and said so in my post.

Agricola posted back to me and noted the mods were aware of the feeling by more than a few posters that posts are essentially being censored. I thought Agricola addressed the problem and the mods attempt to rethink some of the rules adequately. Teresa also added her comments and that helped me to understand her position and goals for this site a little better.

I've thought about both of their posts overnight. This site is basically designed for fundamentalists. I was a fundy myself for 47 years so I absolutely understand that mindset and the beliefs that go with it. Fundy thinking is rather unique and isn't really compatible with anyone who doesn't buy into that particular way of thinking. Fundies generally don't even recognize non fundy groups as Xians, so that kind of confirms they are not exactly open minded.

People who are leaving the c of c generally are not leaving Christian fundamentalism, they are just in the process of finding a new somewhat less legalistic version of Xian fundamentalism. Therefore the basic thinking hasn't changed all that much and that thinking still rejects more liberal versions of Xianity. It goes without saying the those of us who have rejected religion altogether are really not compatible with any form of die hard Xianity.

Since that is true any comments we make about our lack of belief is offensive to a fundy. They see us as having committed the unpardonable sin and we are therefore the worst of the worst. All of my c of c friends disfellowshipped me when I left the c of c and I haven't heard from any of them since. And I understand, from their point of view and beliefs, why they have no choice but to turn their backs on me. I also understand they despise homosexuals because they are certain God hates homosexuals so they have to hate them too. No I'm not gay, but I confess I don't have an issue with homosexuality either. As fare as I'm concerned people are free to love whoever they love.

So, those of us that have left the faith are tolerated here but not really welcome and I honestly don't have a problem with that because I understand fundy thinking and beliefs. This site isn't designed for us, were an anomaly, a by product of religious intolerance. Xians don't care what we think or why we left the faith and that's understandable.

Xians like to plant seeds and I confess I do too because I am convinced the fundy versions of Xianity are absolutely religious cults and I do include the c of c in that too. I am also convinced true freedom will never be found in any religion. Control and indoctrination are mandated for religion to survive and they have become experts in the use of those tools. An open and inquisitive mind is the biggest danger religion faces. Members who ask questions are a serious problem. Religion demands compliance not questions. Questions reflect a potential lack of faith and that is a serious threat.

I am now actually ashamed that I was ever so gullible as to believe any of the nonsense that the c of c fed me. I am even more ashamed that I actually brought a number of people into the c of c through the use of a coercive Bible study. Ironically the c of c dogmatic belief that the Bible is fully inerrant and fully inspired is what eventually led me out of the c of c. I eventually had to admit that I saw lots of inconsistencies and obvious contradictions in the Bible as well as stories that were obviously not literally true because they were clearly myths. Noah, taking snakes, tower of Babel, this list is lengthy.

That led me on a decade study and research of the creation and evolution of both Xianity and the bible. Xian history is nasty and bloody. I found out no one knows where the gospel story came from. It only existed in oral form for decades and maybe centuries. No one named Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John wrote anything because they were names made up as was their supposed involvement with the fictional character named Jesus. Studying the history of Xianity and the Bible proved to be an eye opening and emotional experience. Just read the first chapter of Luke and it is obvious the supposed author isn't an eyewitness to anything and obviously didn't know Paul, who is also likely a mythical character as were his missionary journey's.

I'm aware Xians don't want to hear any of that and could care less what scholars have discovered. As one poster told me a few months ago it simply isn't possible for historians to known what happened. I realize that's just a defensive mechanism and used as a last resort when the believer doesn't have any facts to back up their beliefs. That is why "faith" is necessary because there is no evidence to support any of the Xian beliefs. And lack of faith is a sin unto death. A skeptic might have something to say about that kind of logic, but Xians don't see a problem with it at all.

I could never return to religion. I will never surrender my freedom, my money, or my mind to that cult again.

[Letmethink]

Cootie Brown, excellent post. I've followed this site (from time to time) for a couple of years now. I grew up in a deeply hardline coC, and all of my immediate family was fully immersed in it. I began deeply studying the teachings of the "little c" of C close to a decade ago. My goal in my study was to fully understand the reason for doing the things that we do, and largely so that I could teach me children and make sure that their faith was built on a solid footing. For much of that time, I was teaching classes, lay preaching and active in the "worship service." I stayed with the coC for most of that time, even though I didn't buy into many, many of the dogmatic teachings. I "held fast" to the Bible, and realized that many, if not most, of the most dogmatic doctrines in the coC were easily refuted simply by sticking to what the Bible said.

I did not gain popularity for pointing out what the Bible said or by challenging these unwritten doctrines / dogmas / creeds.

But I can confidently say my faith in the Bible never waned, nor did my fervor for the Bible.

That was, until I began to see the various inconsistencies in the Bible. Which prompted me to dig. And dig. And dig.

My digging didn't stop, and neither did the inconsistencies that were uncovered. It slowly become evident to me that the doctrines of "infallibility" and "inspiration of the Bible" were also simply dogmas created by man. Except this time, it was also clear to me that these specific dogmas weren't just relevant to the coC, they were the bedrock of virtually every flavor of Christianinty that I was aware of. Once the thread unraveled, it unraveled so thoroughly, it looked nothing like its former self. The former blanket of belief became a pile of discarded string.

Ironically my my search to bolster my faith led to the eventual complete loss of faith. There are many Christians that don't believe that this is possible; perhaps some reading this now. They believe that my journey was not what I say it was, or that somehow I was insincere. I am sure some doubt whether I was ever a true believer in the first place. I know without the slightest bit of hesitation that I fully believed in God, that Christ was the son of God, and that salvation was through Him alone.

Some might be interested to know that I attended church "faithfully" during this whole process, and the even for some time after my faith was gone. In fact I still often attend (although a much more progressive variety now), mostly out of habit, and for many relationships that I value, and fear of losing those relationships if I stop. My faith however, is gone. Entirely. I still like to study the Bible, and try to figure what makes each of us think the way we do. But I am no longer convinced that the Bible is anything more than recorded writings of men from various generations, geographies, and cultures.

Regards to all. I wish you the best wherever your paths lead.