Ask about Judaism

[agricola]

Now, DURING the Second Temple period (which includes the first century and the time of Jesus and the apostles) there WAS a belief in an unpleasant afterlife (not necessarily 'forever and punishment', but unpleasant). I don't have time right this minute to do this justice - have to get to yoga! but basically Christianity carried that over, while Judaism basically interpreted the hell idea out of existence. Modern Judaism (just like Christianity at the start) is not a continuation of 'all Judaism' from the first century, but is a descendant principally from the Pharisaic movement (so is Christianity at the beginning, by the way). Christianity became very strongly influenced by Greek/Roman ideas quite early on, though (like the difference between the material and spiritual worlds (and bodies) for instance).

Ask more Jews, get more answers (since it isn't 'doctrine' or 'salvation issue'). Plenty of Jews (knowing that Christians believe in a heaven and a hell) will tell you that Judaism believes in neither, but that's not exactly correct. It IS true that the question 'what must I do to be saved' is so nonsensical in a Jewish setting, that when a Jew is asked that question, we really don't know how to answer it. It never comes up with Jews.

[flawed]

I like the concept of not burning for eternity for not getting the 5 acts of worship right, sure seems more fitting of a loving and merciful God. I worked with a Jewish ER physician and we would talk a lot on slow nights, but we never really discussed his afterlife beliefs. Kind of wished I would've now, he was the only Jewish person I've ever met.

[agricola]

Look - and Jew or Christian doesn't matter here: what is God like?

You know why I really left the coc? I mean, finally and for good, the very most basic bottom reason?
Because what the coc taught me about 'what is God like' was so revolting, that I could not stand it any longer. He loves us but He is always watching for us to make the teensiest tiniest, inadvertent mistake - not even on PURPOSE - and then He will burn us in fire eternally. He loves us, but we have to be perfect. I could add more examples, but that was really it. It is a teaching of extreme abysmal fear, and 'fear God' may be something we should do, but there is - there must be - some kind of limit.

That is not - repeat not - a loving God. I don't actually require that 'God' include 'loving' as a major attribute. But it also not a JUST God. It is not a MERCIFUL God. It is, in fact, no kind of God at all.

The coc teaches that leaving 'the church' is the same as 'leaving God'. My take on that is, the 'God' of the coc is not a valid God in the first place. If there is a 'God' at all, that God is NOT the one presented by the coc. And look, people, if you have to constantly excuse God, and constantly explain God, and constantly tell people 'well, it really isn't like that really', then you have a problem. That kind of 'God' is worth leaving behind. It is a small child's narrow view, and it does not work well past childhood.

Functionally speaking, the coc teaches a duology: Father God is mean and nasty and wicked and dangerous, and Jesus God s is sweet and nice and kitty cats and babies - except even Jesus God picks up a whip, and even Jesus God says 'you can only get to Father God through me' and Jesus God, in fact, puts himself in between Father God and mankind, and says 'you can't see him unless I let you' and 'you have to be perfect' and 'you can't be perfect' and 'you need me'.

Here are some other denominations that teach two god figures, but more explicitly: LDS (Mormons) and Jehovah's Witnesses.

[flawed]

Yes the coc God is very scary, which is why I've never understood how I'm supposed to love him so much. Love me or burn, there's your choices. Many of the coc reformers I've been reading do not believe hell is eternal fire punishment, Al Maxey has a very lengthy and convincing debate with a coc preacher who insists it is.

[agricola]

Once I started actually looking at the NT and Christian teachings (not coc teachings!), it made much more sense. I still can't buy into Jesus being identical 'with' God. I think that would have been so foreign to Jewish thought of the time (and now, as well) that it would not have entered his or his followers minds at all - and therefore anything in the gospels which SEEMS to say that, is either a) planted later or b) we aren't understanding it right.
So that was when I started studying about Second Temple Judaism, because WHATEVER Jesus was talking about, he was talking to a bunch of second temple period Jews - and he himself WAS a second temple period Jew, and so were all the apostles....
in other words, he absolutely HAD to be making himself clear to the audience of the time, even if he was saying something 'new', he was saying it in context with everything they knew and believed already.

Let me tell you, a study like that is pretty interesting!

There are more resources around now about that topic than there was when I got started over thirty years ago. Bart Ehrman is a good source. So is Brad Young, and Amy-Jill Levine, and Samuel Sandmel (now deceased) is really good - his books were around when I first began, and they are still relevant (We Jews and Jesus is one of the books I still have).

Jews generally tend to know more about Christianity than Christians know about Judaism (most Christian's knowledge of Judaism is both horrendously dated and wildly inaccurate) but even given that, most Jews don't really 'get' the internal differences between Christian denominations. Few Jews read the NT at all, although it isn't forbidden or anything. I think it is partly tradition and partly caution - there has been enough church-supported or encouraged antisemitism over the ages that a lot of Jews shy well away from trying to tell Christians what they (ought to) think about Christian writings, even though most of the NT is genuinely late Second Temple Jewish literature (admittedly, from a relatively minor sect of that time).

Anyway - these are some fairly reliable sources for information (not at all complete):
Samuel Sandmel
Leo Baeck
Irving Greenberg
Bart Ehrman
Brad Young
Amy-Jill Levine

[B.H.]

When I worked at a grocery store there was a Jewish man who worked there (not all Jews are rich--yes some work in the grocery department at grocery stores) He wasn't the most observant of Jews and was going out with a CoC one cup girl. He visited their church a few times and it just made him so mad.

He knew I was Church of Christ and he asked me "BH what does the Church of Christ have against the Jews? Why do they think we are going to hell". He thought their stance that only they are going to heaven was an antisemitism thing. I laughed and told him it had nothing to do with being a Jew. They believed that about every religion and even all other Christian denominations . When I told him that he looked like he was hit by a ton of bricks and he said "Well, I'll be and say it ain't so"" and then he went back to stock the floor.

His name was Enoch and I'd joke with him and he with me all the time. I called him Enoch The Seventh From Adam and he would call me Pharoah. :lol because I was in management. I wasn't a mean boss though and he and I have stayed in touch and been friends for years. He later went on and got some science degree and works in Dallas.

[agricola]

'God, you made many many poor people. I realize of course it's no shame to be poor....but it's no great honor either!
So what would have been so terrible, if I had a SMALL fortune?'

(Tevye)

Having wealth is seen as a good thing, because if you have wealth, you can do more to help others. There's no particular shame about being poor, but there's no feeling that making a lot of money is somehow unspiritual either. I can assure you, however, that there are plenty of poor (or less than rich) Jews.
But - here's the deal: education is HUGE. Like H-U-G-E!! and in the US, a college education (especially in the past) correlates with generally higher lifetime pay. Plus there is definitely a tradition that Jews 'ought to' go into either medicine or law - and both those careers are well-paid in general.

Lots of jokes on the topic of education and expectation and the Jews:


Lady walking toddlers stopped by a passerby:
How cute! How old are they?
Ans: the doctor is three and the lawyer is two.

[B.H.]

'God, you made many many poor people. I realize of course it's no shame to be poor....but it's no great honor either!
So what would have been so terrible, if I had a SMALL fortune?'

(Tevye)

Having wealth is seen as a good thing, because if you have wealth, you can do more to help others. There's no particular shame about being poor, but there's no feeling that making a lot of money is somehow unspiritual either. I can assure you, however, that there are plenty of poor (or less than rich) Jews.
But - here's the deal: education is HUGE. Like H-U-G-E!! and in the US, a college education (especially in the past) correlates with generally higher lifetime pay. Plus there is definitely a tradition that Jews 'ought to' go into either medicine or law - and both those careers are well-paid in general.

Lots of jokes on the topic of education and expectation and the Jews:


Lady walking toddlers stopped by a passerby:
How cute! How old are they?
Ans: the doctor is three and the lawyer is two.

You are not kidding. The average wage in Navarro County is $27,000 which is not a whole lot. I finally found an employer who believes their management should be educated or getting educated and I make much more than $27,000. Still not rich but very much middle class.

One question that dumbfounds me because I just do not know how to answer such stupidity is this "Why should you get "x" because you have an education and I don't?". After long and futile and embittering attempts there is no way of answering such stupidity. The Bible says somewhere to not argue with fools because all they will do is heap insults and abuse at your wisdom.

Now back to Jews.

You know, I kinda like Jews. Of all the people in the world I have never had any problems with any Jew. Seriously. I always have hit it off real well with them.

[agricola]

Jews are often accused (and rightly so) of being argumentative, stubborn (the Bible mentions 'stiffnecked') and contentious - and we come by that reputation legitimately, mostly -

I had a question from someone on Quora the other day - why does Judaism encourage the questioning and debating of her concepts and laws?
And that is actually true - unlike some faiths, Judaism ENCOURAGES debate, and questioning - so I had the chance to answer that question on Quora, and here is my answer:

It is considered to be the best way to arrive at the correct conclusion or to develop the final positions acceptable to the most people. It has the advantage of being able to bring out and develop all the possible ramifications of every statement. Nothing remains unexamined. Nothing needs to be taken ‘just because’.

Because we are ‘Israel’ and ‘Israel’ means ‘struggle with God’. Because we believe God LIKES it when we ask questions.

Because when you study by discussion and argument you end up really TRULY knowing what you studied, and you have already encountered all possible challenges.

Because all that argument is ‘for the sake of heaven’ and therefore the argument - the discussion that ranges over every possible contingency - is itself ‘correct worship’.

We even have arguments about arguments: it is proper to interrupt study (which is inevitably a discussion about the text with another person) in order to pray? That itself is an ‘argument’ recorded in the Talmud (the Oral Law).

Besides, we have examples:

Abraham, who argued with God about destroying the cities of the plain.

And Jacob, who ‘wrestled with’ - something - all the night long and earned a new name for himself and his people because of it (Israel).

Then Moses, who first argued that he was a bad choice to be a leader in the first place, and later argued that any punishment the people deserved should be awarded to him instead, because he was their leader.

(I got a fair number of 'likes' and a very nice compliment from an orthodox rabbi, so I guess it's a pretty good answer.)

[B.H.]

Agricola,

I read a story (it is a story and admitted to be such) that a group of rabbis were arguing about a certain point of Law or other part of the Bible. God sends Moses down to the rabbis to tell them who is on the right track and who is on the wrong track. When the Rabbis see Moses they are all excited and glad to see him, but when he tries to explain to them where they are right and wrong they get mad and say "We can figure this out for ourselves. We appreciate your visit but we will figure out what we need to do" and Moses says okay and then leaves. Moses come back down later in the day and is just grinning. The rabbis ask him what God did when he told him they wanted to figure the problem out for themselves. Moses said God bust a gut laughing.