An Observation

[agricola]

In CENI thinking, there is no distinction between CofC Doctrine and the word of God because there is no such thing as "CofC doctrine" ,,,,there is only God's Doctrine.

Yeah - that. Leaving the coc is = leaving God, in coc thought (doctrine).

[agricola]

I think Cootie is saying that 'the meat' is tougher to digest than 'the milk'. And a 'weak believer' might not be ready (or may not want) to examine their beliefs too closely - YET.

I do think there is a danger present (not a 'danger' exactly) when one studies history and critical analysis of sacred writings, because that certainly CAN upset your prior beliefs and challenge one's ideas. We can also see in the world quite readily that many people who DO study such things end up either leaving their denomination or leaving their faith altogether, or - though less often - ending up with a stronger faith but one that is far less dogmatic and more nuanced.

So it is 'dangerous' to the believer, in a sense, to entertain such studies. But some people simply feel they MUST, or they want to learn in spite of 'risks'. It is unlikely, I think, that someone would do such a study and do it seriously and with an open mind, and NOT be changed in some sense.

Everybody is in a different place and has a different experience. I think, for myself, that learning more is simply something that both should and must be done, but it isn't necessarily that way for everybody, and it doesn't mean that the ones that want to know more are 'smarter' than the ones who don't. It also doesn't mean that the ones who want to do more and learn all they can are inevitably going to end up heretics or atheists or something.

[KLP]

.... It is unlikely, I think, that someone would do such a study and do it seriously and with an open mind, and NOT be changed in some sense.
....

Yes, the honest student would of course have to change their mind as they actually learned the "facts". Just like the open minded sincere Bible student will see that CofC is the Lord's church. Yall post your stuff as if it is enlightened and based on data...but none of it is knowable. So all your "studies" are is bias confirmation just the stuff you accuse of other believers. And so when you justify your current position as being based on knowledge and critical thinking it therefore has to imply that your former position is only maintained by not having engaged those activities.

[agricola]

That's my story and I'm sticking to it - right, klp? Me too. We are unique - just like everybody else!

[Cootie Brown]

.... It is unlikely, I think, that someone would do such a study and do it seriously and with an open mind, and NOT be changed in some sense.
....

Yes, the honest student would of course have to change their mind as they actually learned the "facts". Just like the open minded sincere Bible student will see that CofC is the Lord's church. Yall post your stuff as if it is enlightened and based on data...but none of it is knowable. So all your "studies" are is bias confirmation just the stuff you accuse of other believers. And so when you justify your current position as being based on knowledge and critical thinking it therefore has to imply that your former position is only maintained by not having engaged those activities.

Agricola said what I wanted to say, she just said it more elegantly and precisely. I do not possess her ability to express myself as coherently and concisely as she does. I could not possible add anything to her post. What she said is what I was trying to say but failed.

It is probably not wise but I will add this thought. Klp, you have indicated you've never studied the historical critical scholarship perspective, but you claim it's nonsense (my words and interpretation of your post, but I may have misunderstood) and I'm wondering how you know that if you've never investigated it? I realize I pissed you off royally when I first began posting. I was wrong to do that and to post the things I did. You are correct this is primarily a support board, but I don't think that eliminates all other thoughts and comments, but I may be mistaken about that.

If Christianity is so fragile that any thoughts or exploration outside of acceptable speech, study, and doctrine may destroy it, then I think that says a lot about some peoples faith. Assuming God is the author of the Bible do you really think the Creator of all that is, is incapable of adequately defending his creation against heretics? I realize in past times I'd be burned at the stake but hopefully those days are gone forever.

Just for the record (again) I'm not an atheist but I am a little agnostic. Whatever I may be, I am not religious. God, or what we commonly call God, may have been the Creator of all there is but I am convinced humans created religion. If that makes you hate me then I'm sorry. And I am deeply sorry for pissing you off. I think you are under a mandate to forgive when as genuine request is made asking for forgiveness. And I am making a genuine request for forgiveness for offending you. And that request is something I really don't do, but I'm making an exception in your case because I created this riff and I want it to end. We don't and won't agree on a lot of things, probably not much of anything actually, but that doesn't mean we have to be enemies. I know mature Christians can handle controversy graciously. I really want to be able to agree to disagree without adding insults and innuendos. I have a built in tendency to be sarcastic and I'm aware of that. I'm asking forgiveness for that too, if I unintentionally slip up. Point it out to me if I'm guilty and I will quickly apologize.

[agricola]

Cootie, discussions that impinge on the very idea of 'faith' and what it means to be religious or not, belong in 'Old Paths Reconsidered'. General discussions which have the chance of arousing discussions that could get a bit warmer belong in Coffee House. Anything involving politics (which often includes stuff about economics and sociology) go to the Political Forum (which one must ask permission to be admitted to, and which is NOT moderated, so it can get very 'warm' indeed).

For the 'How has the coc impacted your life' forum - this thread is going into some unknown territory for most. I should probably get it moved to Coffee House or to Old Paths (and I will if anyone requests it).

This forum and the Abuse forum and New Paths, are supposed to be a 'kinder gentler' setting for new members (and old members) to - mainly - welcome, support and comfort each other.

This forum is also a place for people to come in and just blow off steam about their coc (and the coc in general), which is pretty much where this thread (this discussion) had its roots, I think. We've wandered off track some, though.

[Cootie Brown]

Thanks for the clarification Agricola. In my defense the thread requested examples of how the c of c impacted me. It impacted me to the point I left the faith, but it apparently didn't mean for posters to be honest about why they left the faith or at least not that honest.

I'm new here & still in the process of learning the ropes. I assume it's okay not to be a believer as long as the non-believer doesn't give details about why they left the faith.

I haven't participated on a site anything like this for a very long & I've apparently forgotten how sensitive conservative believers can be. Like I said I'm still learning. I'll give it a little more time and see how it goes.

[agricola]

Thanks for the clarification Agricola. In my defense the thread requested examples of how the c of c impacted me. It impacted me to the point I left the faith, but it apparently didn't mean for posters to be honest about why they left the faith or at least not that honest.

I'm new here & still in the process of learning the ropes. I assume it's okay not to be a believer as long as the non-believer doesn't give details about why they left the faith.

I haven't participated on a site anything like this for a very long & I've apparently forgotten how sensitive conservative believers can be. Like I said I'm still learning. I'll give it a little more time and see how it goes.

Let me think a bit -
This particular forum - GENERALLY speaking - is perhaps more snark/complaint than discussion forum. It is perfectly fine to tell us that academic study of scripture impacted your view of the coc. Maybe advising that for others is a bit over the custom of this particular forum - for THAT discussion, you want Old Paths Reconsidered....

If it helps, it took me MONTHS to figure out where to post what, and I am still (after what, eight years I think?) not all that great at it (I will answer and post in a discussion which might be moving pretty fast, and forget to look at 'where' we are).

At some point in the past, we had two 'doctrine' discussion forums, this one and another one that actually WAS for discussing coc doctrine (which still isn't exactly where your topic would go, would it?) This one - the original - was always mostly 'my coc used to do XYZ and isn't that weird' or 'did your coc also sing Just as I am every Sunday night?' plus some (maybe gently) funny threads with re-imagined Christmas carols.

But if you are on the atheist/agnostic end of the belief spectrum (or think you might) then you can post in Old Paths Reconsidered, and expect to find some kindred posters and a lively discussion - 'believers' aren't exactly banned, but they are not the focus of that forum and if they post, they are expected to be ready to be challenged to defend themselves sometimes.

[Cootie Brown]

Okay Agricola, that sounds perfectly reasonable. It is not my intent or desire to be a problem. Thanks yet again.

[KLP]

Thanks for the clarification Agricola. In my defense the thread requested examples of how the c of c impacted me. It impacted me to the point I left the faith, but it apparently didn't mean for posters to be honest about why they left the faith or at least not that honest.

I'm new here & still in the process of learning the ropes. I assume it's okay not to be a believer as long as the non-believer doesn't give details about why they left the faith.

I haven't participated on a site anything like this for a very long & I've apparently forgotten how sensitive conservative believers can be. Like I said I'm still learning. I'll give it a little more time and see how it goes.

The issue here has never been about your "being honest" about why you did anything or believe anything. The issue is about your repeated assertions and comments about people of faith as being ignorant, unread, not intellectually prepared to look behind curtains, etc. So sure tell us how something impacted "YOU" and please leave off the negative comments about others who happen to hold a different world view.