A place to snark and vent about CoC doctrine and/or our experiences in the CoC. This is a place for SUPPORT and AGREEMENT only, not a place to tell someone their experience and feelings are wrong, or why we disagree with them.
Lev wrote:
I never understood the whole "God's house" deal with the COC. No food, no coffee, no weddings, no music, no playing cards (I got in trouble for this as a kid). What about the concept of God not dwelling in "houses made with hands"? The COC seems to be of two minds about this. They'll insist that it's "just a building" and to call it a "sanctuary" or a "church" is wrong but they'll impose rules on it as though it were something special. Other denominations seem to be more consistent, e.g. the consecration of Catholic churches or the "for any purpose" approach to many Protestant buildings.
Lev
Yes!! I heard time and time again "We're the church. This is just a building." yet in the dead of summer when it was 105 outside I couldn't wear shorts when I was a kid even to a Friday night gospel meeting because "we're in God's house." When we would occasionally go clean the building on a Saturday afternoon we couldn't bring any food or drinks inside the building because "We're in God's house". It's "just a building" when it's convenient for them, but it's also a sacred place when it's convenient for them as well. No consistency whatsoever.
Just like most CoC doctrine, it is circular logic and tail chasing stuff, never consistent.
I think the building thing is some what consistent and reasonable based on a given approach to authority and the experience of the Institutional splits of the 50's/60's.
There is an intent to only act and stay within the authority and guidance of God. Along with that is the idea that accidents happen and that it is best to leave some margin. Also it is evident that things tend to slide down the slippery slope so it is best not to get to close to the edge.
We see this in the hedges and barriers set up around the Mountain in Sinai in Exodus and also in the notion of giving 39 lashes and stopping one short of the max of 40. So yes, a more relaxed attitude towards all things church can be taken on certain occasions...but then once that is established, who gets to decide the next relaxation. The building under the full CENI reasoning is "just a building" but it is still purchased with the Lord's money in order to be used as an expedient to the assembling of the saints and teaching the Gospel. It is the wisdom of many that it is just easier and "safer" to just never start down the road of treating the building like any other old barn or rental hall. That is the reasoning. Sure, people disagree on this but IMO it is not just random or circular. But if you are going to be safe by stopping at 39 lashes, why not be double safe and stop at 38? And so people who intend to do the right thing end up gradually and slowly becoming more and more constricted in actions and may be not knowing why other than "that is how we do it".
So what happens is the building takes on this sanctuary feeling where running and shouting and playing Frisbee would show a lack of reverence and respect...and to some extent that is true. Some people begin to even speak in lowered tones when they are in there on Saturday running the vacuum. So it seemed to me the thing was that no one ever knew where "the line" was, it was sort of confusing if one could have a snack/Coke in there on Saturdays while working. No one knew exactly how much was too much...so, again like the hedges and 39 lashes...people just stopped way, way short to be on the "safe" side. Nothing wrong with that, but it does undermine the criticism of other groups thinking of their buildings as "holy".
Isn't the world wonderful...I am all for rational optimism and I am staying positive.
KLP, I have to disagree. The COC absolutely does, in my experience, contradict itself on its approach to "the building." If they were consistently trying to get "safer and safer" because of some core belief that the building is "God's House," and must therefore be treated as "holy" then I would agree with you. The inconsistency lies in the fact that the COC's actions do not match its doctrine. They preach that the building is just a building, that the early church didn't even have buildings, and then they dig through the NT to find rules for how to use a church building! (Hint: if there are no church buildings in the NT, there won't be rules for how to use one in there either.)
I'm not arguing that one should or should not treat a church building in a certain way. I understand that every structure has its appropriate uses. You wouldn't hold a baseball practice in a ceramics studio. What I am saying is that the COC preaches one thing with regard to their buildings--namely that, unlike "the denominations" they don't regard their buildings as holy but understand that they are just "expedients" to fulfilling the command to worship--and practices another thing: treating the building as holy by not allowing various activities, styles of dress, food, etc. inside of it. This is yet another case of the COC being inconsistent. Of course the COC isn't the only inconsistent denomination out there; it's just the one that most of us here have the most experience with.
klp - lev - it sounded to me like you actually DO agree: the coc is inconsistent in its teachings re 'the building' and the behavior they actually show to 'the building'. It wouldn't be the first time the coc was showing inconsistency between what they say they believe and what they do - and of course, that IS the group we are all most familiar with! klp just suggested a possible reason why.
Inconsistency is fairly common I suppose, in most groups, but maybe not to the extent concerning doctrinal stuff, or at least, we are seeing it more closely from a coc than we could from any other denomination.
History is the fiction we invent to persuade ourselves that events are knowable and that life has order and direction. That's why events are always reinterpreted when values change. We need new versions of history to allow for our current prejudices.
klp really brought back memories for me. Building work days like on a Saturday brought up all kinds of questions. Can we wear jeans? Can we bring tools into the building? Can we bring a lunch and actually eat it in the building? It was so strange seeing Elders in jeans and eating in the building. Can we bring a radio and play music while we work?
The building is a sanctuary and yet it is not within the coc. So, so confusing for everyone.
Back to the topic. No you can't visit other churches. And be careful with some of those other coc's. They're liberal! Just heard that from my Dad this past weekend.
Pitts S2C wrote:klp really brought back memories for me. Building work days like on a Saturday brought up all kinds of questions. Can we wear jeans? Can we bring tools into the building? Can we bring a lunch and actually eat it in the building? It was so strange seeing Elders in jeans and eating in the building. Can we bring a radio and play music while we work?
All these scenarios are acceptable in different degrees, depending on which CoC tribe one is referencing. Envisioning the elders wearing jeans and t-shirts while eating pizza in the pew, and enjoying Black Sabbath on the radio paints a special image in my mind.
Freedom in Christ always trumps slavery to legalism
Lev wrote:... What I am saying is that the COC preaches one thing with regard to their buildings--namely that, unlike "the denominations" they don't regard their buildings as holy but understand that they are just "expedients" to fulfilling the command to worship--and practices another thing: treating the building as holy by not allowing various activities, styles of dress, food, etc. inside of it. This is yet another case of the COC being inconsistent. Of course the COC isn't the only inconsistent denomination out there; it's just the one that most of us here have the most experience with.
Actually that is exactly what I said...perhaps I was too subtle with the word "undermine".
Isn't the world wonderful...I am all for rational optimism and I am staying positive.
Lev wrote:... What I am saying is that the COC preaches one thing with regard to their buildings--namely that, unlike "the denominations" they don't regard their buildings as holy but understand that they are just "expedients" to fulfilling the command to worship--and practices another thing: treating the building as holy by not allowing various activities, styles of dress, food, etc. inside of it. This is yet another case of the COC being inconsistent. Of course the COC isn't the only inconsistent denomination out there; it's just the one that most of us here have the most experience with.
Actually that is exactly what I said...perhaps I was too subtle with the word "undermine".
Thanks for the clarification. So we're really not that different after all!
Yes, my point was that in strong CENI type places, the building use is not random or haphazard policy. And that because of the fear factor, people are not sure so they will "err on the safe side". And that when you are leaving a margin for error due to fear, then you really are not exactly "fully" CENI, but rather are hoping to just remain within the bounds of CENI....it is therefore like the barriers at Sinai.
Isn't the world wonderful...I am all for rational optimism and I am staying positive.
The whole thing with the building brings back a lot of memories. Was it "just a building"? Was it some sort of sanctuary? Which was it? At my last cOC, the preacher man lived right across the street from the building. He NEVER went to the buidling any time other than Sunday or Wednesday, unless of course, it was for a gospel meeting. One time, his wife looked out the window and saw someone on a riding mower at the building and asked him who that was, since she did not recognize the person. Preacher man shrugged his shoulders. His wife then asked him if he was the least bit curious as to who was cutting the grass. He replied "no". As it turns out, one of the members was going to cut the grass, but ended up not having the time, so he sub contracted out the job to a friend of his. So,that was who was on the mower. Anyway, I always thought it was weird that preacher man would NEVER go to the building outside of service times. He later told someone that the place was for worship only or some such, so that was why he was only there on Sundays, Wednesdays, or if there was of any sort of meeting. Many speculated that it was due to him being an avid golfer! Can't run the risk of losing time on the golf course!
Can't run the risk of losing time on the golf course!