If you keep one part of the law, you have to keep it all

[Opie]

Martin Luther also said "While it is faith alone that saves, the faith that saves is never alone". In other words James is not saying that a person is saved by works, but that genuine faith will produce good deeds and works. According to Paul in Romans 3:21-22, it is our faith in Christ that saves us..... but just be sure that you don't ever say this inside a CoC building or you will labeled as a "false teacher" and as one who is of "unsound doctrine".

[KLP]

I think this thread belongs elsewhere. Certainly discussion of 1st century and Nicaea are beyond anyone's experience. And talking about what other CoCers think and act in regards the Sabbath is not about a personal impact here. I would like to participate but feel I cannot due to the purpose of this forum. Thanks.

[Cootie Brown]

WhateverJames &"Paul believed it's clear to me they not only didn't agree on many issues they didn't like each other either.

It seems to me Paul is theologically the odd man out. I see similarities between Jesus & James theology, but Paul's theology strikes me as very different. I've read a number of scholars that believe Paul was a Gnostic because his theology reflects that thinking. Traditional Xian teaching & beliefs would likely reject that theory though.

[williamray123]

I think an argument could be made that requiring a believer to keep any part of the law would nullify faith, grace, & Christ sacrifice. That may be why Luther didn't think the Book of James belonged in the Bible.

Some believe if works are required that would seemingly nullify the concept of grace.

This makes sense when you think about the ceremonial laws, but not murder, stealing, etc. If I don't murder, do I nullify God's grace? The logic doesn't hold up.

[Cootie Brown]

I think an argument could be made that requiring a believer to keep any part of the law would nullify faith, grace, & Christ sacrifice. That may be why Luther didn't think the Book of James belonged in the Bible.

Some believe if works are required that would seemingly nullify the concept of grace.

This makes sense when you think about the ceremonial laws, but not murder, stealing, etc. If I don't murder, do I nullify God's grace? The logic doesn't hold up.

The interesting thing about Xianity is that it doesn't lack for diverse opinions when it comes to what is & is not theologically correct. I favor the faith & faith alone option. It's simple & if I was God I think I'd want to make salvation as simple as possible. Once you start writing law things tend to get complicated & before long folks tend to disagree about everything. Then they start playing Gpd condemning anyone & everyone to hell that doesn't agree with them.

Yep, if I was God I'd definitely go for simple.

[williamray123]

I think an argument could be made that requiring a believer to keep any part of the law would nullify faith, grace, & Christ sacrifice. That may be why Luther didn't think the Book of James belonged in the Bible.

Some believe if works are required that would seemingly nullify the concept of grace.

This makes sense when you think about the ceremonial laws, but not murder, stealing, etc. If I don't murder, do I nullify God's grace? The logic doesn't hold up.

The interesting thing about Xianity is that it doesn't lack for diverse opinions when it comes to what is & is not theologically correct. I favor the faith & faith alone option. It's simple & if I was God I think I'd want to make salvation as simple as possible. Once you start writing law things tend to get complicated & before long folks tend to disagree about everything. Then they start playing Gpd condemning anyone & everyone to hell that doesn't agree with them.

Yep, if I was God I'd definitely go for simple.

I agree, but I wasn't exactly talking salvation. Salvation is faith only - but after you are saved, the sanctification process begins and as Romans 2 says, even the saved gentile will walk according to the law written on his/her heart.

[Cootie Brown]

[/quote]I agree, but I wasn't exactly talking salvation. Salvation is faith only - but after you are saved, the sanctification process begins and as Romans 2 says, even the saved gentile will walk according to the law written on his/her heart.[/quote]

I'm just pondering the possible ways people who are not religious might interpret this sanctification process. Is it possible, those outside the faith community might consider the sanctification process a form of indoctrination? I ask that because how is the law actually written on a person's heart? It seems reasonable to believe it can only get there in one of two ways. It is either supernaturally written on their hearts, or other humans methodically place expected behavior and compliance with various thoughts, beliefs, laws, rules, and commands there through a process those outside the faith community might call indoctrination? In other words, subjecting the new convert to continuous exposure and reinforcement of what is now expected of them and what they are expected to believe and how they are expected to behave. Could that be the real purpose of bible studies & sermons? I think an honest person would have to think about that, but I'm also aware how difficult it is to be truly objective about much of anything, especially something that is more of an emotional belief than an intellectual one. Faith, after all, is belief without supporting evidence. I also acknowledge most people don't care as long as it doesn't directly affect them or their loved ones. I'm old and retired so I have time to ponder stuff like that and it keeps me from wandering away from home and getting lost.