Why Jon left

[williamray123]

One of the reasons that "Jon" gave for supposedly leaving the CoC was the lack of biblical teaching that he failed to find in his community church. In my experience, just the opposite is true. The richness of teaching about grace, mercy, forgiveness and salvation I find in other churches is often very rich compared to the impoverished teaching that I find in the CoC. I am still a believer in Christ, but I continue to have struggles and anger issues about decades of things that happened while in the CoC. Glad that God is still good and faithful.

I was wondering what the reaction would be if his complaints were about his home CoC church - "You aren't putting enough into it" or something like that. He actually seemed just really gullible - my preacher has 2 verses - CoC has 10, must be better! But do they do proper interpretation and exegesis of those 10 verses? No Jon, they don't. They go by the Campbellite traditional interpretation - those verses don't mean what they say, but Paul sure meant what he said!

Also, most community churches have a "lighter" main sermon and then dig deeper in small groups. Did Jon not avail himself of the small groups?

The end was the worst - Grinning hick preacher asking "what if everything you know about your salvation is a LIE?" ... lol.. has CoC ever converted anyone from unbelief or do they just poach baptists they can scare into thinking their "baptism didn't take"? .. sad.

[KLP]

I recently watched an episode of GKChersteron show about Catholic Social Justice. Chesterton made a point 100 yrs ago about how anti-communist mainly make 2 arguments and both are the wrong way to approach, even though they are right arguments. Summarizing quickly...First argument is the communist are bad people and the second is that communism cannot work because men are self-interested bad people. He says they are essentially arguing that we are scoundrels and I forbid you to choose to be anything else. Instead he argues that liberty means privacy and responsibility in regards property and other things.

So the argument of "we are right and scripture based" as a counter argument to community church seems like above to be the wrong argument even if it is right in and of itself. They are saying being unhappy and lacking emotion is of no consequence in comparison to truth and they "invite" others to join them in being just the same.

[williamray123]

He kept repeating something like "all the good we were doing .. it didn't matter if we didn't have the truth".. basically all your charity is nothing if you don't have a CoC sign hanging off your building.

[MusicMan826]

He kept repeating something like "all the good we were doing .. it didn't matter if we didn't have the truth".. basically all your charity is nothing if you don't have a CoC sign hanging off your building.

The sad thing is this is exactly how many COCers believe. I heard sermons preached about people who devoted their lives to worshiping God and helping others and were constantly doing things for charity. Yet they were still going to hell because "they didn't do what the bible says". What they meant by this, of course, is that the person who devoted their lives to helping other people went to a church that used instruments, or had a praise team, or a kitchen, therefore all of those good deeds didn't mean anything to God. Meanwhile you'll likely have a difficult time finding any COC person helping out with any charities or even just helping the less fortunate in general. They're only concerned with what the bible says when it pertains to those few hours on Sunday and that hour on Wednesday night, or when they're wanting to prove to someone else that they're right and everyone else is wrong.

[agricola]

He kept repeating something like "all the good we were doing .. it didn't matter if we didn't have the truth".. basically all your charity is nothing if you don't have a CoC sign hanging off your building.

that's just - that's just SO BACKWARDS. It is saying that 'doing good' doesn't do any GOOD.

[williamray123]

He kept repeating something like "all the good we were doing .. it didn't matter if we didn't have the truth".. basically all your charity is nothing if you don't have a CoC sign hanging off your building.

that's just - that's just SO BACKWARDS. It is saying that 'doing good' doesn't do any GOOD.

Just like CoC won't give gifts in the name of Jesus for Christmas, but giving gifts because of wants/materialism is just a-OK

[Cootie Brown]

Examples that demonstrate why many people believe the Church of Christ is a religious cult. Not sure why anyone who was a member of that group would doubt that.

[KLP]

Examples that demonstrate why many people believe the Church of Christ is a religious cult. Not sure why anyone who was a member of that group would doubt that.

Well then maybe re-read the explanation that was given within the past week and where you said Agri made good points as to why it is not a cult.
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=765&hilit=cult

[Opie]

I'm surprised to see that this Jon video has had so much attention as I assumed it was geared for a local group. I'm just down the road from the coc in the video and now attend the "community church" I'm 90% certain he "left". My family and I have had some friends share the video with us on Facebook trying to "reach out to the lost flock". What's funny is that around five years ago we (CoC) had a men's meeting and all the talk was about the growth of certain community churchs. Even then I was thinking how I wished I could leave the coc and longed for change. I guess I'm a slow learner. It's funny how strong the confirmation bias is with regards to the video and book. I'm sure everyone is slapping themselves on the back when they discuss it on Sunday and Wednesday. All the while their numbers dwindling as people such as myself finally have the courage to "just see what's out there". If I had a dollar for every time I heard our elders say, " we're not in the entertainment business" I could supply Welch's for all coc's. The community churches are growing because they reach out and have friendly smiling people inside that find ways to make the church experience desirable. The coc's philosophy of "we're right and speak the truth now sit down and shut up", is failing and will continue to do so unless a major change takes place. I believe the future of the coc will become ever smaller ultra conservative churches while the bigger churches change and become more "community like" even to the point of dropping the coc name such as Oak Hill in San Antonio. But what do I know, I'm a lost heathen anyway.

Hey Dawggone, would you happen to know if "Jon" in the video is a real live person, or is he just an actor reading his lines?

[agricola]

I did say it was cult-LIKE. It's not like there are separate bins: normal churches. cult churches. There's a spectrum - or at least there's a handy checklist (kind of like the one that helps you decide if you have a problem with alcohol): check 'yes' to more than 8 and you are officially a cult. Something like that, and the coc checks maybe 6.

Deception lies at the core of mind-manipulating and high-demand ("cultic") groups and programs. Many members and supporters of these groups/movements are not fully aware of the extent to which they have been abused and exploited. This checklist of characteristics helps to define such groups. Comparing the descriptions on this checklist to aspects of the group with which you or a family member or loved one is involved may help determine if this involvement is cause for concern. If you check any of these items as characteristic of the group, and particularly if you check most of them, you might want to consider reexamining the group and its relationship to you. Keep in mind that this checklist is meant to stimulate thought. It is not a scientific method of "diagnosing" a group.

We suggest that you check all characteristics that apply to your or your loved one's group, then print this browser page for future reference. You may find that your assessment changes over time, with further reading and research.

The group is focused on a living leader to whom members seem to display excessively zealous, unquestioning commitment.
The group is preoccupied with bringing in new members.
The group is preoccupied with making money.
Questioning, doubt, and dissent are discouraged or even punished.
Mind-numbing techniques (such as meditation, chanting, speaking in tongues, denunciation sessions, debilitating work routines) are used to suppress doubts about the group and its leader(s).
The leadership dictates sometimes in great detail how members should think, act, and feel (for example: members must get permission from leaders to date, change jobs, get married; leaders may prescribe what types of clothes to wear, where to live, how to discipline children, and so forth).
The group is elitist, claiming a special, exalted status for itself, its leader(s), and members (for example: the leader is considered the Messiah or an avatar; the group and/or the leader has a special mission to save humanity).
The group has a polarized us- versus-them mentality, which causes conflict with the wider society.
The group's leader is not accountable to any authorities (as are, for example, military commanders and ministers, priests, monks, and rabbis of mainstream denominations).
The group teaches or implies that its supposedly exalted ends justify means that members would have considered unethical before joining the group (for example: collecting money for bogus charities).
The leadership induces guilt feelings in members in order to control them.
Members' subservience to the group causes them to cut ties with family and friends, and to give up personal goals and activities that were of interest before joining the group.
Members are expected to devote inordinate amounts of time to the group.
Members are encouraged or required to live and/or socialize only with other group members.

Copyright 1996 ICSA/AFF, Inc.

There's about 14 things on that list and a typical coc only has about 6 of them (my opinion - I made those bold font). 6/14 is a lot, but it isn't even half - quite.