Ask about Judaism

[agricola]

Soooo, Agricola:

Can we talk about the Trinity?

Specifically, what is the Jewish position on it? Do Jews consider the Trinity to be polytheistic, or is a legitimate form of monotheism?

Most consider it idolatry, or something called 'shituf', which is accreting more than one god to the one God, and that's 'sinful' - for Jews. Some consider the Christian Trinity as a 'defective' monotheism, and okay for Christians or pagans (being a step up from polytheism) but a sin for a Jew, because it is a step DOWN from pure monotheism. Many Jews don't understand the 'three in one' idea at all, and neither do a lot of Christians, actually, for that matter - so the Trinity is usually seen as not monotheism, and Christian insistence that it is, is usually considered to BE (charitably) an error.

What about the messiah? Are the Jews looking for a messiah as I always learned in coc? If so, do they believe the messiah will be divine, or just human?

Yes, but he isn't terribly important or immediate. The messiah will eventually turn up, the world will achieve total peace, and then time will end. The messiah will of course be a normal ordinary human person (just an extremely good and talented one). Many liberal Jews don't believe in a personal messiah, but rather in a messianic AGE, when all the expected tasks of the messiah will be achieved by people generally, and therefore no individual person will be needed.

Typical messiah teaching: from the Talmud, by the way - If you are planting trees, and someone tells you the messiah has arrived at the gates, finish planting the trees and then go and see.

Another story (this one is a joke):
Two poor Jews in Eastern Europe are talking, one says he just got a job from the synagogue (that is, from the community) and it pays 1 ruble per day. His friend says, hmm, that's not so much. The first guy says, true, but its steady (long term) work. What's the job? He has to stand at the gate of the city and keep an eye out for the arrival of the messiah, so he can tell the community if and when he shows up.

Background:
I ask these questions because the topic came up tangentially in the discussion of Christian eschatology with a friend of mine. I reflected on what I had always been taught (specifically that the Jews were looking for an earthly king to set up an earthly kingdom, but instead rejected the scriptures), and wondered if it is an accurate portrayal at all.

Basically, yes of course. That is the actual 'job description' of any messiah: he will unite the Jews in Israel/Jerusalem, establish a kingdom, rebuild the Temple, etc. World peace, happiness for all, etc etc. Although I don't know how that qualifies as 'rejecting the scriptures'. Judaism - and Jews - don't spend a whole lot of time worrying or thinking about the end of time events, though. They aren't terribly important. But most would say the messiah will come and accomplish all those things, and then he will rule benevolently until he is old and gray, and then when he dies, the End of Time will arrive and God will judge everyone, etc.

I usually recommend an excellent book on this subject at this point:
The Death of Death: Resurrection and Immortality in Jewish Thought, by Rabbi Neil Gillman

It's not about the messiah as such, but there's a lot in there about the development of the ideas of the End of Days, Judgement and so forth.


Judaism doesn't focus on the End of Time and Judgment. Judaism focuses on our behavior here and now. I tend to think it is because of the lack of the idea of Original (or Inevitable) Sin, which means that there is no real idea that people are in NEED of 'salvation', and also the teaching that God is both just and merciful, and the 'things' of 'eternity' are God's business. Don't we trust God? Sure. Isn't God reliable, merciful and just? Of course. Then why worry? God will take care of all that end of time stuff.

Judaism does have an afterlife concept, and a judgment concept, but they aren't a huge big major part of anything. And while there's a kind of 'heaven' idea (very poorly described and usually contradictory), there isn't a proper idea of any 'hell'. There's something sort of like Purgatory, but people don't stay there very long.

You can find all sorts of ideas from Judaism - or more correctly, from Jews! over the centuries about heaven and 'sheol' and things of that sort, but they are never central to the faith. Plus the understanding of 'the soul' varies enough from the Christian idea that it is almost better to use a different word altogether -

for instance - well, answer me this:
Is 'the soul' (yours, anybody's) innately immortal? That is, when you die, will your soul 'live on'? Eternally? (Never mind about reincarnation, that's a different topic, but we can talk about that too if you want, but later).

[Letmethink]

Thanks for your responses, Agricola.

The concept of the Trinity, I would say, is actually one of the contributing factors to my deconversion, though probably a more minor one. The more one considers it, the more it doesn't really fit the mold of monotheism. At least that's how it seemed from my point of view.

So regarding the question of innate immortality of the soul. I formerly believe that all humans were given an immortal soul at the time of conception. I think this is a common belief among Christians.

However, I remember studying on this topic probably 7, 8 years ago, and concluding that nowhere in the Bible could I find solid support for this position. This, among many others, is a doctrine that I dropped years before I shed the Christian faith altogether.

[agricola]

Thanks for your responses, Agricola.


So regarding the question of innate immortality of the soul. I formerly believe that all humans were given an immortal soul at the time of conception. I think this is a common belief among Christians.

Yes, that's a common Christian belief, and it is in fact a GREEK influenced belief: the soul is immortal, and it is separate from the body.

That idea is SO not Jewish!

Judaism instead believes that humans are a composite (indivisible) body/soul. You aren't a body WITH a soul (or a soul with a body), you are a BODY/SOUL. The body of course is physical and tied to earthly matter: it is 'animal' like any other life on earth, and it lives, eats, reproduces and dies. The soul is 'spirit' and is a kind of gift from God - not something 'immortal' but something 'eternal' (that's different) and therefore the soul doesn't eat or reproduce or die, but if your body dies, the soul part 'returns to God' (and is, presumably, figuratively - reabsorbed).

(I'm going to avoid the topic of reincarnation here, because it is somewhat peripheral to Judaism in a way, being a part only of the mystical variety)

At the end of time, all the dead shall rise (be resurrected) - right? This is a belief which Christianity shares. And at that time, God may CHOOSE to 'remember' the soul part and reunite the soul/body. (No zombies in this scenario!). But if God does not choose to 'remember' a person to life (resurrection) then they simply don't return.

The irredeemably wicked, in other words, live one life and die, and God does not 'remember' them and they are never resurrected at the End of Days. No afterlife for you!

This remembering does not depend on a person's state of belief or 'faith' or belonging to the Jews, or anything. Everybody who ever lived has the potential to be resurrected at the End of Days, to be reunited with God in a perfected world....you know the basics of this part. That's 'heaven' in Jewish terms, really: unification with God.

The first to be resurrected will be the most righteous ones - this may shed a little light on the gospel story of Jesus getting resurrected and then all those other dead people are seen walking around Jerusalem. The bodily resurrection of the dead - starting with the most righteous - was a sure sign of the beginning of the End of Days.

But the soul, in Judaism, is not immortal, nor is it a separable 'being' apart from a body.

By the way, this is not such a major teaching in Judaism that the average Jew is well aware of it at all. I know because of how I was raised (!) and therefore I looked for this kind of information! Plenty of Jews, even ones who are synagogue members, don't even realize that Judaism HAS an afterlife! 'We live on in the memories of our loved ones' is a very typical statement and I've heard it innumerable times. But standard, garden variety, traditional Judaism does indeed teach that there is an afterlife and a Judgment Day - it just isn't really so important that it gets a lot of airtime in synagogues!

It's evident all over the prayerbook and in the daily prayers - but some people are so familiar with those they aren't quite paying attention!

But the daily prayers clearly say things like 'Blessed are You, God, who gives life to the dead' or 'who keeps faith with those who sleep in the dust (that is, the dead)' and prayers to God to 'remember us to life'.

These are some of the very OLDEST prayers (at least 1000 years old), when 'everybody knew' what those phrases were about, I suppose.

[agricola]

And on a lighter note (but very relevant to the recent discussion of the Law and Talmud:

For centuries, Jews in Europe and communities derived from Europe (that is, the US) have observed a custom of avoiding 'kitniyot' (veggies that can be ground up and LOOK LIKE flour) during Passover. But sentiment has been moving against this ban (which was never observed by Sephardic Jewry anyway) thus opening up the option of lifting this centuries old practice:

h**p://forward.com/culture/food/338525/conservative-movement-overturns-800-year-old-passover-ban-on-rice-and-legum/?utm_content=bufferce349&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer

This is an example of how the 'oral law' works today: For Reform Jews, this custom isn't 'binding'. For Conservative and Orthodox Jews, it HAS BEEN binding (because 'minhag', or community customs, over time, have the force of Law). But - in the Conservative movement at least - the law CAN change.

I am seeing a lot of interest and discussion on this move within the online ORTHODOX community - if the 'poskim' (the legal deciders) with stature in the orthodox community decide to get behind this idea, banning kitniyot will become a quaint, but abandoned, historical oddity.

For: teresa mostly

[Cootie Brown]

I've enjoyed reading these posts. Judaism is an interesting religion. We're fortunate to have a knowledgable teacher on board.

[Letmethink]

I've enjoyed reading these posts. Judaism is an interesting religion. We're fortunate to have a knowledgable teacher on board.

Judaism is interesting, and Agricola is great. I have learned a lot from Agricola that I didn't know. And I have learned that a lot of what I thought I knew (i.e., what I had been taught within Christianity) about Judaism was just wrong.

[agricola]

I like it when people ask questions. When people don't ask questions, it is usually because they think they already know. And I can tell you, from the questions I get (shoot, just from having grown up coc!) that a lot of what Christians THINK they know about Judaism is both wrong, and incomplete.

Not surprising.

When Christianity was forming - and when modern Judaism was forming, because this was all happening around the same time - one of the important things Christianity was doing was defining itself: who are we? what do we believe? what do we do?
And one of the main ways it defined itself, quite naturally, was by defining what is was NOT - by explaining how it was DIFFERENT.

AND - since Christianity in the first two or three centuries was a faith that was growing 'out of' Judaism in at least some major part, the faith it was defining itself as DIFFERENT FROM, the faith it WAS which the other WAS NOT, was Judaism by necessity.

So a lot of the Christian scripture (the NT) is really concerned with explaining how they are DIFFERENT (and not how they are similar - what's the point in that?) from Judaism. Sometimes that explanation used exaggeration, or 'straw horse' arguments, or (commonly) simplification of a complex topic, to make their argument clear.

They couldn't go TOO far, because too much of Christian theology and argument for legitimacy comes from Judaism and the scriptures of Judaism. You did know, I hope, that at least some early Christian leaders tried to obliterate that connection altogether? Google 'Marcion'.

Many Christians 'know' about Judaism only from what is said in the NT and in churches. It is a selective and semi-deliberately false image of a real 'Judaism', but it is also a selective and semi-deliberately false image of a Judaism WHICH NO LONGER EXISTS.

Just as modern Christianity grew out of the first century 'church' but is (in significant ways) different, so too rabbinic Judaism - modern Judaism - grew out of the first century synagogue, but it too is (in some manner) different.

Most importantly, the 'synagogue' which the church argues against in the NT and the early church fathers' writings, was a Judaism where the Temple was still in recent memory, when the forms and interpretations which make up modern rabbinic Judaism were not yet fully in place, when elements of the older 'philosophies' (Sadduceanism, Essenism) were still living ideas (though not thriving).

[Letmethink]

Many Christians 'know' about Judaism only from what is said in the NT and in churches. It is a selective and semi-deliberately false image of a real 'Judaism', but it is also a selective and semi-deliberately false image of a Judaism WHICH NO LONGER EXISTS.

I am coming to this realization more and more. We learned a distortion from our teachers, who also only knew of a distorted view.

[Letmethink]

Got time for a few more?

Noachide Laws: I had only recently heard of these, and as I understand, according to Jewish teaching, and Gentile to adheres to these laws is considered a righteous gentile, and has a place in the world to come.

The World to Come: what is this, exactly, and how does it relate to the Christian view of heaven? Would it be true to say that Jews tend to be more focused on the affairs of this world than those of an afterlife?

The Resurrection: obviously there was some disagreement during the days of Jesus. Do views still hold differing views about it today?

Immortality of the soul: Yes or no?

No urgency in responding. I'm just genuinely curious.

[FinallyFree]

Thanks for your responses, Agricola.

The concept of the Trinity, I would say, is actually one of the contributing factors to my deconversion, though probably a more minor one. The more one considers it, the more it doesn't really fit the mold of monotheism. At least that's how it seemed from my point of view.

So regarding the question of innate immortality of the soul. I formerly believe that all humans were given an immortal soul at the time of conception. I think this is a common belief among Christians.

However, I remember studying on this topic probably 7, 8 years ago, and concluding that nowhere in the Bible could I find solid support for this position. This, among many others, is a doctrine that I dropped years before I shed the Christian faith altogether.

Finding out that the immortal soul thing came from the Greeks and was not in the Old Testament is what started my entire period of questioning everything I had been taught. This was EXTREMELY shocking to me.