Blessed Are The Peacemakers

[agricola]

I've been told in parental stories that I was taken out and spanked when I misbehaved in church. I can't say how young I was when they started that, or
when they stopped doing it...but must have been a young toddler. In one story I said to my Dad as he was taking me out "I'll be good, Daddy", so I had
started talking by then. I don't remember it, other than from the family lore. Now y'all know why I am the way I am.

Me too. He was a softie (my daddy) sometimes, so sometimes promising to 'be good' would work and I'd get out of a spanking, unless he was really mad. Never worked with mother.

[Shrubbery]

It's sad to me when a 1 year old is taken out and spanked for being noisy in the service. Because you know, it's so developmentally appropriate for a 1 year old to sit quietly on a pew for over an hour.

My husband is pretty traditional with the spanking and such, but even he realized early on that spanking a very young toddler for that didn't help. And that spanking for crying especially didn't work (just makes them cry!). Instead, he just takes her out and sits with her until she's settled (or done talking - she's a happy talker). If she's really upset, he'll take her outside and let her touch the biblically unauthorized shrubberies in front of the building.

I did bring Cheerios for the first couple kids. The next two, I tried to avoid even starting that, because they just expected it all the time. I found other ways to entertain them. But while breastfeeding, yeah, always had food in the church building there. Too bad my little one weaned already. I could use it as an excuse not to go.

The parenting varies a lot in my congregation. Some bring pop tarts and juice boxes for the kids, while some don't do any food at all. Some are really strict about making their kids sit on the pew from toddlerhood. My youngest rolls around on the floor in front of the pew sometimes, and I let her as long as she stays within our little zone (no rolling to the next row or out into the aisle). Fourth kid, I'm just not that strict. My friend says that when she was 5, her mother gave her a notebook and a pencil and told her to write any words she heard in the sermon. 5 years old and she had to listen to the sermon. My kids, I've been fine with them not listening in their pre-teen years. My teen listens without doodling or doing other things. The younger kids doodle and I'm cool with that. I have seen kids who were allowed to doodle and kids who weren't, I don't think the non-doodlers were any more pious when they grew up.

[Struggler]

I used to hate seeing kids get dragged out of church for being kids. Children are not miniature adults, and it's time real Christians abandoned that Puritan-type belief.
I can think of at least two fathers at my most recent church who went WAY overboard with the "discipline." What bothered me was that nobody in authority did anything about it.
Previously, one mother was notorious for yelling at her kinds, and everyone else's, at the church. One elder and his wife made repeated attempts to get her to knock it off. Didn't do much good. Two other women became minor-league versions of Sister Leather Lungs. When my nephew came to church with me, I told one of 'em that if she ever spoke to him like that, she would regret having ever met me. She got the hint, and I assume, told her fellow bellowing biddies. They never came near him.

[B.H.]

The problem I have with the Bible and spanking is it tells you to discipline but no where tells you the point you are going over the line with it. It mentions beating slaves so bad they were out of commission for a day or two, and that wasn't considered abuse. Could I beat my kid until they couldn't get out of bed for a day or too and that is not abuse in God's eyes?

It says that you are not to embitter your children but that is such a wishy washy statement I know of a man who I think beat his children say that they were bitter torward him because he did not beat them enough.


My mother broke down and had to be hospitalized with mental problems. During couseling it turns out my grandparents were the cause of it with their harsh child rearing practices. If she had not gotten help and killed herself one day would that have then been considered having been abused?

I understand you have to keep kids in line and even the best of kids even doing nothing wrong if with the wrong crowd just by coincidence can get their parents into severe financial difficulties. For example, your kid is good but just happened to be close to some kids who start vandalizing property. The adult or police see them and lump them altogether and no one believes kids when they are really innocent. They are all lying little shits. You are all of a sudden out a lot of money paying your share of your childs hoodlum damage they really didn't do. I also understand kids can be hard to live with.

However, I never understood why parents do not fear retribution from their children to a certain extent. By this I mean they know their kids will grow up and have to take care of them one day. And sometimes when kids get older and get financially sond on their own can just dump their parents and have no legal obligations. It seems to me you would want to treat them kindly and fairly and not beat them or mistreat them because of this. People who treat their kids like shit are fools. The kids will one day be able to pay back ten fold.

[Shrubbery]

The problem I have with the Bible and spanking is it tells you to discipline but no where tells you the point you are going over the line with it. It mentions beating slaves so bad they were out of commission for a day or two, and that wasn't considered abuse. Could I beat my kid until they couldn't get out of bed for a day or too and that is not abuse in God's eyes?

Yes, it says if you strike him with a rod, he will not die. Ok... so we can beat the child with a rod until he's black and blue and maybe has broken bones, but as long as he hasn't died, it's ok. I don't think we can use child discipline recommendations from a book that advocates stoning people who commit adultery. That was culturally acceptable back then. Today, not so much. If you strike your child with a rod today, you will be put in jail. I know many Christians use a wooden spoon or a whispy stick from a tree ("switch"), but the Bible says strike him with a rod. Those things aren't rods.

I understand you have to keep kids in line and even the best of kids even doing nothing wrong if with the wrong crowd just by coincidence can get their parents into severe financial difficulties. For example, your kid is good but just happened to be close to some kids who start vandalizing property. The adult or police see them and lump them altogether and no one believes kids when they are really innocent. They are all lying little shits. You are all of a sudden out a lot of money paying your share of your childs hoodlum damage they really didn't do. I also understand kids can be hard to live with.

By the time they're of the age to do vandalism, they're too old for spanking anyway.

I'm still on the fence with spanking, but I can say that #4 has hardly been spanked at all. It doesn't do much good with her. And she's fairly sensitive to correction anyway. If I say no, she'll not do the thing, but she might throw herself on the floor in a quiet pout. Or she'll want to snuggle with me and pout. A minute or two later, she's back to her normal happy self and goes on her way without doing the thing she was corrected for. Easy peasy. My boys weren't quite so easy. But the one that probably got spanked the most ended up being autistic, so spanking was really the wrong thing for him. He equates spanking with hitting in general, and doesn't understand why he can't hit others when his parents have "hit" him. Normal children can make that distinction most easily. He's older now (though not yet a teen... he's getting close to the size of one), and I don't spank him now. I've found other tactics that work better for him - like sending him to his room (separating him from everyone else) until he's calm, or taking away his screen time, etc. I just had to figure out his currency, and now he's more easily disciplined without physical means.

We were never as strict as what is recommended by some Christians (coc and other fundamentalist types), like in that book by the Pearls. We reserved spanking for big deal items, not general every day misbehavior.

However, I never understood why parents do not fear retribution from their children to a certain extent. By this I mean they know their kids will grow up and have to take care of them one day. And sometimes when kids get older and get financially sond on their own can just dump their parents and have no legal obligations. It seems to me you would want to treat them kindly and fairly and not beat them or mistreat them because of this. People who treat their kids like shit are fools. The kids will one day be able to pay back ten fold.

That is an excellent point! One day these kids will either be taking care of you (and possibly beating you like you did to them) or abandoning you. Best to develop a good, healthy relationship! I know plenty of people who have basically had to cut off their parents due to abuse - physical as a child, continuing into emotional as an adult. One friend is ex-coc (used to be on the old board) and had to cut off her family when they continued to harrass her about leaving the coc. She left over 10 years ago, I believe. They were still spiritually abusing her with their letters and such. Not cool. I'm making sure my kids know that their choices don't have to be my choices. Though that's eaiser for me since I'm mentally no longer coc (they don't know this yet). I'm sowing the seeds of tolerance of other people and beliefs. Just yesterday, my ASD kid asked which was better, Catholicism or Protestantism (we had been talking about the Protestants splitting off in our history studies). I told him that neither one was better, but that it was a matter of belief. This is after we'd lumped coc into Protestantism, since it came out of Presbyterianism originally. Sowed some seeds there too - hey, the coc isn't the one true church that has been around since 33AD. Since he's going to hear that Catholics are of the devil at church (one elder's son-in-law is converting to Catholicism, so he's talked about it more when teaching... that family is in anguish over the son-in-law), I figure I'll plant the seed that the Catholics aren't evil and that they're just doing what they believe they're supposed to do, just like the coc does. I don't believe Catholic doctrine myself, but I do believe they're still Christians, based on the many, many verses I read in the NT about who God abides in.

[Tsathoggua]

However, I never understood why parents do not fear retribution from their children to a certain extent. By this I mean they know their kids will grow up and have to take care of them one day. And sometimes when kids get older and get financially sond on their own can just dump their parents and have no legal obligations. It seems to me you would want to treat them kindly and fairly and not beat them or mistreat them because of this. People who treat their kids like shit are fools. The kids will one day be able to pay back ten fold.

Excellent point! I have actually thought this, myself. (I have no children.)

[Ivy]

....can just dump their parents and have no legal obligations.

Well, if you are neglecting / abandoning an elderly / disabled person, you will have legal consequences (Adult Protective Services gets involved). Most people, I have found through the years of working with humans, do right by their parents -- at least being sure they're being taken care of -- even if they were not treated right as children.

[B.H.]

....can just dump their parents and have no legal obligations.

Well, if you are neglecting / abandoning an elderly / disabled person, you will have legal consequences (Adult Protective Services gets involved). Most people, I have found through the years of working with humans, do right by their parents -- at least being sure they're being taken care of -- even if they were not treated right as children.

Isn't that only true if you take on the role formally and legally as their caretaker?. If you are grown and wish to cut off ties with a parent the state cannot make you come in and say, pay their bills or sit with them a few hours a day, or whatever if you do not want to

[Shrubbery]

Even if you're the legal caretaker, you could toss them in the cheapest nursing home (which will look like a hospital ward), make sure bills are paid, and leave.

One of my husband's grandmothers was a mean, evil woman. Her daughter-in-law (my MIL) visited her weekly to help out with groceries and doctor visits until the woman's daughter finally moved close enough to take over. My MIL is a saint for putting up with that woman all those years, taking care of her. So Ivy is right in that regard... The last time my FIL saw his mother, she was STILL making rude comments about him. She was a nasty woman. FIL and MIL made sure she had money in her account, and until the daughter took over, they made sure she had everything she needed, while visiting her as little as possible. She complained that no one came to see her, but she was such a mean woman, that no one wanted to be around her. She made her own bed on that one. She was cared for though. She had food, medical care, and a roof over her head. No elder neglect or abuse while MIL was taking care of her.

[Ivy]

Shrubbery, kudos to your MIL for doing the right thing.