Are There More Words Besides "Ludicrous" or "Absurd"?

[SolaDude]

Also the part about the bread was about our daily sustenance. Towards the end of my participation in the CoC, I pointed out that the early christians viewed that part about the bread as communing with Christ and Him being the bread and that the people would take some of the bread home after communion so that they could have some "daily" partaking (remember the prayer) of it at home. At that point the rationalization began and of course it was just "custom" and we don't do that today. However, very early on that prayer without alteration about the kingdom was said on Wednesdays and Fridays during the fast of the Christians on those days and also said three times a day as part of their prayer rule or life. I guess those first century Christians didn't get the memo from the NI brethren.

Hey, Gordie, this reminds me of a Cultural Anthropology class I had at a CofC college...the poor teacher was obviously way ahead of his time...he did share a story of missionary work that I very much respected...he made the decision not to use grape juice and bread in the culture he found himself in for communion....instead, he used a juice familiar to their culture, and a food that was eaten like bread in their culture...and it worked great...but I guess the NI would consider him a navigator of hell....

[gordie91]

Also the part about the bread was about our daily sustenance. Towards the end of my participation in the CoC, I pointed out that the early christians viewed that part about the bread as communing with Christ and Him being the bread and that the people would take some of the bread home after communion so that they could have some "daily" partaking (remember the prayer) of it at home. At that point the rationalization began and of course it was just "custom" and we don't do that today. However, very early on that prayer without alteration about the kingdom was said on Wednesdays and Fridays during the fast of the Christians on those days and also said three times a day as part of their prayer rule or life. I guess those first century Christians didn't get the memo from the NI brethren.

Hey, Gordie, this reminds me of a Cultural Anthropology class I had at a CofC college...the poor teacher was obviously way ahead of his time...he did share a story of missionary work that I very much respected...he made the decision not to use grape juice and bread in the culture he found himself in for communion....instead, he used a juice familiar to their culture, and a food that was eaten like bread in their culture...and it worked great...but I guess the NI would consider him a navigator of hell....

No, I think they would give it a few weeks of study and training for the newly converted savages before they would consider them going to hell or at the least in error. Of course, I think before they would cut him loose on the natives they would be sure to supply him with the appropriate elements prior to his trip and plenty of tracts that explain why he should use these particular elements.

In Orthodoxy, we use leavened bread and afterwards everyone can take some of the blessed bread that didn't make it to the chalice. I do know that a good portion of NI preachers would have serious problems with leaven during communion even though Jesus is quoted as telling them to take the artos, the Greek word for common bread instead of the Greek word for unleavened bread. And that sometime around the 7th century the western church began using wafers or unleavened bread which caused a stir amongst the churches of the east. But, the wine in both cases is really wine and we both know that will not fly, it has to be Welches.

[SolaDude]

I've studied Orthodoxy and been to a service, gordie...the service was quite different of course and quite overwhelming (to my western mind), but I was glad I went....

[Shrubbery]

I've not heard the change in the Lord's Prayer. My NI church just doesn't say it. They think it's vain repetition to say the same prayer over and over. But yes, they will say that that part of the prayer isn't correct for today, since the kingdom is already here. At the time Jesus supposedly said it, the kingdom wasn't here yet, so it's ok for him to say it.

As far as the personal relationship with God... As I'm studying the OT right now via the Yale lectures Cootie has posted, it seems that the Jewish nation didn't have a personal (individual) relationship with God. They had a national relationship with God. It really was very different from Christianity. Maybe Agricola could comment better on this topic, as I'm just learning about it.

[Ivy]

Also the part about the bread was about our daily sustenance. Towards the end of my participation in the CoC, I pointed out that the early christians viewed that part about the bread as communing with Christ and Him being the bread and that the people would take some of the bread home after communion so that they could have some "daily" partaking (remember the prayer) of it at home. At that point the rationalization began and of course it was just "custom" and we don't do that today. However, very early on that prayer without alteration about the kingdom was said on Wednesdays and Fridays during the fast of the Christians on those days and also said three times a day as part of their prayer rule or life. I guess those first century Christians didn't get the memo from the NI brethren.

Hey, Gordie, this reminds me of a Cultural Anthropology class I had at a CofC college...the poor teacher was obviously way ahead of his time...he did share a story of missionary work that I very much respected...he made the decision not to use grape juice and bread in the culture he found himself in for communion....instead, he used a juice familiar to their culture, and a food that was eaten like bread in their culture...and it worked great...but I guess the NI would consider him a navigator of hell....

I don't think missionaries necessarily share with their supporting congregations everything they do to work with other cultures. A former missionary once told me in confidence about how they worked with tribes in Africa that practiced polygamy. If the non-primary wives were made to leave the home, they would be forced to go into prostitution, so they had to work with the families on taking proper, respectful care of them so they wouldn't end up in poverty. I'm not sure what all that entailed.....

[SolaDude]

I've not heard the change in the Lord's Prayer. My NI church just doesn't say it. They think it's vain repetition to say the same prayer over and over. But yes, they will say that that part of the prayer isn't correct for today, since the kingdom is already here. At the time Jesus supposedly said it, the kingdom wasn't here yet, so it's ok for him to say it.

As far as the personal relationship with God... As I'm studying the OT right now via the Yale lectures Cootie has posted, it seems that the Jewish nation didn't have a personal (individual) relationship with God. They had a national relationship with God. It really was very different from Christianity. Maybe Agricola could comment better on this topic, as I'm just learning about it.

I think it certanly was more group oriented tnan the NT, but not to the elimination of personal relationship to God, their Father. He was mentioned numerous times as "Father" to his "children", so from His perspective he "brought up' his children of Israel (then they kind of screwed up). But the many personal psalms of David beautifully show his personal relationship to God. It would seem that one's personal prayer would subsume a personal relationship with one's Father, in asking for help and intervention. But maybe the CofC just believes in nothing in return, that God has precluded or restricted Himself from doing anything but watching someone read the Bible in hopes they'll find a solution to their issues.

[Shrubbery]

I think it certanly was more group oriented tnan the NT, but not to the elimination of personal relationship to God, their Father. He was mentioned numerous times as "Father" to his "children", so from His perspective he "brought up' his children of Israel (then they kind of screwed up). But the many personal psalms of David beautifully show his personal relationship to God. It would seem that one's personal prayer would subsume a personal relationship with one's Father, in asking for help and intervention. But maybe the CofC just believes in nothing in return, that God has precluded or restricted Himself from doing anything but watching someone read the Bible in hopes they'll find a solution to their issues.

David was king, and at that time, the king DID have a personal relationship with God. The king stood between God and the people. Prior to that, Israel (the nation) is called God's son. When David comes along, David is called God's son (via adoption).

[SolaDude]

I think it certanly was more group oriented tnan the NT, but not to the elimination of personal relationship to God, their Father. He was mentioned numerous times as "Father" to his "children", so from His perspective he "brought up' his children of Israel (then they kind of screwed up). But the many personal psalms of David beautifully show his personal relationship to God. It would seem that one's personal prayer would subsume a personal relationship with one's Father, in asking for help and intervention. But maybe the CofC just believes in nothing in return, that God has precluded or restricted Himself from doing anything but watching someone read the Bible in hopes they'll find a solution to their issues.

David was king, and at that time, the king DID have a personal relationship with God. The king stood between God and the people. Prior to that, Israel (the nation) is called God's son. When David comes along, David is called God's son (via adoption).

The loving, personal, mercy-based relationship of God began with Adam and Eve, whom he created by His own hands (in His own image of supreme love and grace) and breathed life into them Himself, demonstrating that warm, personal closeness/intimate relationship He wished to have with mankind. His personal relationships with Noah (Noah "walked" with God) and Abraham (the "friend of God") were further based on a notion of a recognition of loving obedience on their parts.

[agricola]

I've not heard the change in the Lord's Prayer. My NI church just doesn't say it. They think it's vain repetition to say the same prayer over and over. But yes, they will say that that part of the prayer isn't correct for today, since the kingdom is already here. At the time Jesus supposedly said it, the kingdom wasn't here yet, so it's ok for him to say it.

As far as the personal relationship with God... As I'm studying the OT right now via the Yale lectures Cootie has posted, it seems that the Jewish nation didn't have a personal (individual) relationship with God. They had a national relationship with God. It really was very different from Christianity. Maybe Agricola could comment better on this topic, as I'm just learning about it.

Yes the attitude is very different, although the relationship IS 'parental' (God our Father' is a common prayer phrase), this is a God who is also King, who makes rules and commands obedience. God's covenant is with the whole people, rather than 'one on one'. But at the same time, people DO work on a 'personal relationship', but don't typically use that terminology ('sounds Christian') and don't expect the same kind of thing as Christians might, out of their 'personal relationship'.
Plus there is a still a HUGE amount of 'corporate Israel' (the whole people) to every daily prayer service and all holidays, and a VERY common topic of discussion will always be if this thing or that person or some event is or isn't 'good for the Jews'.

Lots of feelings of community and connection, even with Jewish communities overseas. There's a real feeling of connectedness and commonality - probably why we ALWAYS see a lot of American Jews getting really mad about some action of the official Israeli rabbinate (which has government authority in Israel) even if the American's never actually plan to move to Israel.

Most Jews will readily describe themselves as part of a 'Nation', or a 'People' or a 'Tribe' and I can't count how many times I hear statements like that, or saying 'all Israel are responsible one for the other' (usually in Hebrew*). I like it, actually. I like the continuity of it, and the communal aspect of it, and the traditions that are 'because that's what we do' to answer 'why do you...?'

*Kol Israel arevim zeh l'zeh' - it's in the Talmud at least twice, and it's even a FOLK SONG.

Somebody a few days ago out on the internets was talking about rights and privileges, and another person in a Jewish forum noted (correctly) that Judaism doesn't talk about 'rights' at all (as in the Consitution? unalienable rights bestowed by the Creator?) but is all about obligations.

Interconnected obligations to other people is what creates a social bond and keeps a community stable. If we have a 'right' in Judaism, it is the 'right' to be obligated to behave properly.

Note that, in the Torah, one of the major punishments for serious offenses was 'karet' - to be 'cut off' from the people - in effect, to be cast out, exiled, removed from the group. Judaism has no tradition of the holy HERMIT, and has never considered celibacy to be a desirable or admirable lifestyle. Life is meant to be lived in the community, with people.

This is probably more suited to New Paths, because I've written a long answer, but here it is anyway.

[Shrubbery]

Thank you for chiming in, Agricola! The length of your post is appreciated. You explained it very well.