A place to snark and vent about CoC doctrine and/or our experiences in the CoC. This is a place for SUPPORT and AGREEMENT only, not a place to tell someone their experience and feelings are wrong, or why we disagree with them.
bnot wrote:
They are reaching on this site, especially to protect the 'plan of salvation' by stating it was in use in the 1500's, so they can discredit Walter Scott who developed it in the U.S.A. in 1827. Aside from that, the coc view of 'baptism for the remission of sins' was implemented by Alexander Campbell in 1823 (in the U.S.A.) as he first made mention of it in the Campbell/Mcalla debate in the same year (The Restoration Movement, Bob L. Ross 1981). I have not read that debate yet, but the author lists page numbers for that as well. Plus, instrumental music did not become a big issue until 1860. He did put in a nice little summary of his points at the bottom of the web page, and one point that makes me shake my head every time is autonomous churches: " They were autonomous, and had a plurality of elders/deacons." The bible makes clear that churches were not autonomous with Paul being in charge of churches, which is obvious from his letters, and so was Titus who was appointed by Paul: "For this reason I left you in Crete, that you should set in order the things that are lacking, and appoint elders in every city as I commanded you"—(Titus 1:5). Hardline coc folks will never accept that the coc was born and developed in the United States, and defend their characteristics even when they are flat out wrong.
You can read the Bible with different understanding. I do not believe that water baptism saves anyone but rather faith does. The proof is the Thief on the cross was saved by faith. He died under the new covenant and could not be baptized because he was nailed to cross. The nails were driven though the lower palm near the wrist and though the heel bone. The middle of the hand and front of the foot as done by artists would tear out. The Romans did this frequently and learned from experience. Some think that if you tell a lie frequently enough it becomes the truth. The heel bone of a crucifixion is in Israel.
I believe God does the saving instead of a person choosing to be baptized or have faith. Jesus claimed the power to forgive sins and the salvation of the thief on the cross is His business. Same for baptism, the instruction makes no logical sense but then that is whittling on God's end of the stick IMO. IMO, it is easier to just trust and obey, doing the best you can, what else can one do anyway.
Isn't the world wonderful...I am all for rational optimism and I am staying positive.
KLP wrote:I believe God does the saving instead of a person choosing to be baptized or have faith. Jesus claimed the power to forgive sins and the salvation of the thief on the cross is His business. Same for baptism, the instruction makes no logical sense but then that is whittling on God's end of the stick IMO. IMO, it is easier to just trust and obey, doing the best you can, what else can one do anyway.
The sacrifice of Jesus saves you. He was a sacrifice for sin exactly, The CoC does not get it because they are lost wandering in a desert of sin trying to escape. The churches they condemn are often free of this burden. Jesus does have the power to save. "None comes to the father except by me" is exactly true. Your last 2 sentences are unclear. I see baptism as a public declaration of your faith. It is an allegory. Don't you remember the stories of the person dying on the way to being baptized and going to Hell. That is why the CoC has a baptistery in front of the church. They don't trust God! They are bound up in legalism and not free as they should be. Been there done that! Brush the bugs off and dunk em.
I like to think of it in this way: When a person gets married they wear a wedding ring, but it's not the ring itself that makes them married. The ring is a public sign that the person has entered into a marriage covenant. Likewise, when a person "gets saved" they get baptized, but it's not the baptism itself that makes them saved. The baptism is a public sign that the person has entered into a salvation covenant.
"If I had to define my own theme, it would be that of a person who absorbed some of the worst the church has to offer, yet still landed in the loving arms of God." (From the book 'Soul Survivor' by Philip Yancy)
KLP wrote:I believe God does the saving instead of a person choosing to be baptized or have faith. Jesus claimed the power to forgive sins and the salvation of the thief on the cross is His business. Same for baptism, the instruction makes no logical sense but then that is whittling on God's end of the stick IMO. IMO, it is easier to just trust and obey, doing the best you can, what else can one do anyway.
The sacrifice of Jesus saves you. He was a sacrifice for sin exactly, The CoC does not get it because they are lost wandering in a desert of sin trying to escape. The churches they condemn are often free of this burden. Jesus does have the power to save. "None comes to the father except by me" is exactly true. Your last 2 sentences are unclear. I see baptism as a public declaration of your faith. It is an allegory. Don't you remember the stories of the person dying on the way to being baptized and going to Hell. That is why the CoC has a baptistery in front of the church. They don't trust God! They are bound up in legalism and not free as they should be. Been there done that! Brush the bugs off and dunk em.
Because it is all beyond Man's comprehension...therefore all one can do is trust and obey. Sorry it confused you, but the concept of Trust and Obey means we don't have to have it all understood the nth degree all doctrine and concur with God's plan. That notion of saying "exactly" this or that and what is wrong with "those people" is all about the legalistic mindset...but if it works for you that you understand salvation exactly then good for you. I say that is God's end of the stick and all I can do is the best I can.
To me the CofC dissecting others or others dissecting the CofC are all the same, I don't have to insist that I understand it all and that those folks are wrong...just trust and obey. If somebody thinks this or that about baptism then that is their business, but there is no denying the NT is chock full of people responding to the Gospel by being baptized. The exact point in time of "salvation" is not discussed in the Bible...so how can anyone say they know exactly when it is? If Jesus saved the thief on the Cross then that is his business, all I can do is trust and obey and follow the great commandment given by Jesus. And baptism was ubiquitous among followers of Christ. And that is what Paul asked of the 12 at Ephesus...what baptism did ye receive? So Baptism has something to do with it...so why not just do it and just Trust that God will take care of things? That is Trust and Obey, hopefully it is not so confusing now.
Isn't the world wonderful...I am all for rational optimism and I am staying positive.
Opie wrote:I like to think of it in this way: When a person gets married they wear a wedding ring, but it's not the ring itself that makes them married. The ring is a public sign that the person has entered into a marriage covenant. Likewise, when a person "gets saved" they get baptized, but it's not the baptism itself that makes them saved. The baptism is a public sign that the person has entered into a salvation covenant.
Exactly. That is the view of many churches. The concentration on the physical act in CoC is famous in other churches. I kept getting the comment that the CoC is a works oriented church from believers outside it. I did not at first understand that comment. There was too much about baptism and not enough about how to live as a Christian in my Church. I had alot of issues to overcome thanks to being raised in that environment. Concepts still creep in that are incorrect. I count it as a curse. It's better today but this can affect you for years. I thank God for where I am at today.
I was attending a Baptist church. I talked to the Pastor about membership. He asked what Church was I baptized in. I told him the Church of Christ. He said he did not know if he could accept that. His daughter had recently converted to the Church of Christ and told him that he did not baptize right and was going to Hell.
KLP wrote:[ all I can do is trust and obey and follow the great commandment given by Jesus. And baptism was ubiquitous among followers of Christ. And that is what Paul asked of the 12 at Ephesus...what baptism did ye receive? So Baptism has something to do with it...so why not just do it and just Trust that God will take care of things? That is Trust and Obey, hopefully it is not so confusing now.
The Great Commandment is in the long ending of Mark which was added in later manuscripts. It includes that a Christian can handle snakes and be bit without dying. A Christian snake handler recently died from snake byte. It was in the news. Before another snake handler died but the congregation claimed that is was not the snake byte but a heart attack that killed him. This verse is patently false. I could claim that God does not cxist but I don't believe that. I use the brain God gave me. Many poisonous snakes have neurotoxins in their venom. Some shut down breathing. I don't know what kind of snake. I have handled a constrictor before. You can hang them on your shoulder just don't let them complete the loop around your neck because if they constrict you could end up dead. They do like to wind around you. Not interested in poisonous ones. I realize that there are certain verses that go a certain way. There are are others that say something different. John 3:16 kjv
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
How can this be? Where is baptism? The Problem is that things have to reconciled. People can read the same scriptures and come to different conclusions. Yes, baptism is important. Other churches refer to it as following Christ in baptism. This is not technically correct because Christ received the baptism of John. The biggest trouble with a CoC baptism is being guilted into baptism. It was tried on me. Did you not get the treatment?
The Bible can be legitimately interpreted in seemingly an unlimited number of ways as is evidenced by the fact it is estimated there are 30,000+ versions of Christianity. I think that implies there is no one right way to be a Christin or to worship the Christian God or Gods.
The Catholic teaching on the Trinity, assuming the information I've read about that is correct, is that God, Jesus, & the Holy Spirit are separate entities but equal in power. If so that would make them polytheistic.
Protestants interpret the Trinity as God with three roles. Such as a man can be a son, a father, and a husband. That makes sense but the Catholic version doesn't at least to me it doesn't.
Marcion believed there were two Gods. He did not believe the OT God could also be the NT God because the OT God was evil. Marcion believed there was another more powerful God that defeated the OT God. Marcion did not believe the OT God could become a God of love and mercy. What If Marcion was right?
KLP wrote:[ all I can do is trust and obey and follow the great commandment given by Jesus. And baptism was ubiquitous among followers of Christ. And that is what Paul asked of the 12 at Ephesus...what baptism did ye receive? So Baptism has something to do with it...so why not just do it and just Trust that God will take care of things? That is Trust and Obey, hopefully it is not so confusing now.
The Great Commandment is in the long ending of Mark which was added in later manuscripts. It includes that a Christian can handle snakes and be bit without dying. A Christian snake handler recently died from snake byte. It was in the news. Before another snake handler died but the congregation claimed that is was not the snake byte but a heart attack that killed him. This verse is patently false. ...I realize that there are certain verses that go a certain way. There are are others that say something different. John 3:16 kjv
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
How can this be? Where is baptism? The Problem is that things have to reconciled. People can read the same scriptures and come to different conclusions. ...
ena, you seem intent on trying to draw me into an argument, certainly not support and agreement. Sorry, but that is not going to work.
It is obvious to me that baptism is simply present at every case in the NT when the gospel is preached and is used over and over in reference to the common salvation. I will go with Trust and Obey. I do not go along with those who insist they know exactly and technically how salvation works and seem ready to correct anyone who does not agree. I left that mindset when I left the legalism of insisting I had everything understood. Again, if that works for others then good for them. The 12 at Ephesus believed but were still lacking. If others have a beef with Trust and Obey and they want to declare what verses of the Bible are false, then fine, I am just saying how I view things.
Isn't the world wonderful...I am all for rational optimism and I am staying positive.
Klp the Bible could not possibly have recorded every baptism/conversion to Christ that took place during that time in history. Add the fact that the NT had not even been written yet, so the c of C's theology based on cutting and pasting scripture to come up with a Biblical plan of salvation could not possibly have been the standard for the church at that time in history.
Add to that the fact that communication was difficult so it would be possible that different groups of believers believed and practiced different things.
I do not see any way on earth that the c of C's cut and paste theology could be an accurate replication of the earliest church's beliefs and practices.
Baptism can be traced back to the Jewish tradition of Mikveh (Ceremonial purification by water). So baptism isn't even an original Christian ritual, even though it is central to Christianity now.
I'm no longer a believer so I don't have a dog in this fight, but I became convinced while I was still c of C that Ephesians 2:8-9 is the only way a person could come to Christ. In other words I'm with ena. If salvation isn't by faith and faith alone I see no way anyone could be saved.
