Before Campbell ? Rumney Marsh and Bow Lane

[Cootie Brown]

The neat thing about the Bible is that you can find scripture that will validate a very wide range of beliefs and traditions. And thus another reason there are so many different versions of Christianity.

Either pretty much everyone is wrong or else God is extremely tolerant and faith alone is all that really matters. At least I think all Christians better hope that is true.

[FinallyFree]

I believe your faith saves you, but baptism is commanded. I think someone who is on their deathbed and repents and believes, but is unable to be baptized, would still be saved. Isn’t there in incident in the NT of people receiving the Holy Spirit before they were baptized?

[Cootie Brown]

I believe your faith saves you, but baptism is commanded. I think someone who is on their deathbed and repents and believes, but is unable to be baptized, would still be saved. Isn’t there in incident in the NT of people receiving the Holy Spirit before they were baptized?

But not every scripture that mentions salvation references baptism, but baptism is accepted as a requirement by virtually all versions of Christianity. Whether baptism is symbolic or literally what washes away sin is debatable.But if it's symbolic is it really a necessary requirement?

These are questions the Bible doesn't really answer in any definitive way.

[KLP]

And yet Saul/Paul was told to arise and wash away his sins, he needed baptism.

And yet, the 12 at Ephesus were disciples and but had not been baptized, and so they were

And yet, the Ethiopian read the scriptures and had the Gospel news explained and he wanted to be baptized (if he believed).

And Cornelius was speaking in tongues with the Spirit and yet he too was baptized

The "point of salvation" or the exact how and why and when of "salvation" is never discussed or explained in the NT writings.
And while many folks are want to claim they have the inside track on this, I just go with the Trust and Obey...just do it, just do what you know, just do the best you can, and trust that God will keep His promises. What else can anyone really do? God can save who He chooses and how He chooses...all I can do is to do my best and I can see no good reason to reject baptism or to discount baptism. What and why baptism has to do with anything is not my part of the New Covenant.

Ultimately, it is all a matter of choice and faith no matter how much anyone claims to know or have proof.

These are my opinions, others are free to carry on explaining how they have knowledge and experts.

[FinallyFree]

In the verse where it talks about being baptized to wash away your sins, doesn’t it say wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord? The “calling on the name of the Lord” is the key.
Also, I think of 1 Peter 3:21. It seems to say the saving part is not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but the appeal of your heart towards God, or something like that.

[KLP]

Yes, the 1 Pet 3:18ff is that part where Peter talks about obedience (or lack thereof) and that the water of the flood symbolizes the baptism that now saves. Somehow baptism is always popping up somehow in the NT discussions of salvation. So I just go with it, it is all part of it somehow, so just go with the simple. I am more an Occam's razor kinda guy. For me, explaining why baptism is constantly coming up but at the same time is so unimportant takes too much effort in my mind, so I just go with the flow.

[FinallyFree]

Why would anyone NOT be baptized? If you believe, then obey. I just don’t think someone that’s killed on the way to the baptistery would be lost. Or say it is hopeless for someone on their deathbed. I think in several churches, there is something called a “baptism of desire” that covers people in these situations. That makes sense to me.

[KLP]

yes, the extreme circumstances don't really matter to me (or really anyone...which is why they are extreme). So hit by train on way to get baptized or thief on the cross, God can do as He chooses...all I can do is the best I can on my end of the deal and leave the other end of it to God.

[Shane R]

There used to be a website operated by a Czech CoC adherent that had the most comprehensive timeline of the 'faithful remnant' through the ages. He claimed virtually any fringe group that diverged from the Roman Catholic Church in Western Europe or the Mediterranean. Montanists, Cathars, Waldenses, Lollards, all Huguenots, the early Mennonites etc. :all the true church. I couldn't find that page anymore; perhaps the domain has lapsed. I've seen others grossly misrepresent the work of Ulrich Zwingli or Jan Huss as Restorationist. And anyone that made a vernacular translation of the Bible is at least a sympathetic figure.

It was reading church history that primarily served as my gateway out of the CoC. It began when I read the memoir of Barton Stone and found his doctrine very different from that of NICoCs. In fact, virtually all of the 19th century writers in the movement taught a number of things differently than we did. Most chose to be ignorant of this fact and the few that acknowledged the factuality of my research attempted to make excuses for the pioneers of the church. I have a volume by Robert Brumback, "History of the Church," which was fairly sympathetic to some of the Protestant Reformers, much more so than J.W. Shepard's comparable volume. That lead me to begin researching the actual source documents of the Reformers. I read the Lutheran Confessions, the Belgic Confessions, the 39 Articles of Religion, 67 Theses, 95 Theses, Articles of the Remonstrants, etc. - a project which virtually no CoC person does except second-hand or further distant.

Then I started going back further and reading the Fathers. Most CoC people are unable to read the Fathers because they don't have any knowledge of the requisite vocabulary. One does not just dive into the Fathers and get a true sense of what they were writing about. So I find all manner of fundamentalists, CoC included, who proof-text the Fathers absolutely ridiculous. Well, you can see in my introductory post where that all led.

My Father still tries to act like he can talk about church history with me sometimes. I blow him off at this point. He knows deep down that he's at a huge disadvantage and I could bury him in first-hand testimony of what various figures taught or how various churches practiced. My Mother asked me a while back if I thought I would ever go back to 'THE Church,' to which I replied, "No. I outgrew that." Her response, "You outgrew the TRUTH?!?" No. I found out the truth.

[ena]

I believe your faith saves you, but baptism is commanded. I think someone who is on their deathbed and repents and believes, but is unable to be baptized, would still be saved. Isn’t there in incident in the NT of people receiving the Holy Spirit before they were baptized?

I believe they were saved before baptism.

Acts 10 kjv

44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,

47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?