Atheists do NOT worship themselves or anything else

[Turtle]

This has become a pet peeve of mine. Lately I've been hearing and seeing a lot of memes along these lines: " everyone worships something" and "if you are not worshipping God, you are worshipping yourself" and "an idol is anything you love more than God." That was the topic of last Sunday's sermon. We were shown pictures of idols in India that people actually worship with real acts of worship. Then wouldn't you know it, the definitions of idol, worship, and sacrifice morphed to become what real people do every day instead of spending all their time on their knees in prayer and giving everything they have to the church. This is to make people feel guilty for being human and preferring real life over a nebulous future paradise that they may or may not get to one day. "Anything you love more than God is your idol!" (Boy have I got a lot of idols.)

Then we got an argument that was something like this:

Worshipping idols is not worshipping God
Not worshipping God is what atheists do
Therefore worshipping idols is what atheists do.

Aaaaarg!

Atheists do not pray to anyone or anything. They do not have an atheist holy book. They do not require other atheists to sing, donate money, perform symbolic rites, or meditate about atheism. An atheist is not required to DO anything to be a good atheist. The only thing all atheists have in common is a disbelief in gods. Sorry, noone gets to tell me I am worshipping something or someone, if I say I am not.

Please be kind to an atheist and don't tell them that everyone worships something.

[faithfyl]

I was always told that the statues in Catholic churches were idols. That Catholics practiced idolatry.

[cathym]

Well, I've known a few atheists who thought highly enough of themselves that I'd argue the point, but as a rule...no. And that "logic" makes as much sense as "Nothing is better than love. A peanut butter and jelly sandwich is better than nothing. Therefore, a PBJ is better than love."

[Turtle]

Well, I've known a few atheists who thought highly enough of themselves that I'd argue the point, but as a rule...no. "

Even making statements like this tends to muddy the waters. (No offense) The most selfish, conceited, narcissistic
human being is not actually "worshipping" himself. That is metaphorical. However, metaphorical worship is often equated to literal worship by people who prefer not to see the difference between the two. The same with metaphorical and literal idolatry.

In your argument about pb&j, the usage of nothing has two different connotations, but they are made to be equivalent. Therein lies the problem.

[williamray123]

Well, I've known a few atheists who thought highly enough of themselves that I'd argue the point, but as a rule...no. "

Even making statements like this tends to muddy the waters. (No offense) The most selfish, conceited, narcissistic
human being is not actually "worshipping" himself. That is metaphorical. However, metaphorical worship is often equated to literal worship by people who prefer not to see the difference between the two. The same with metaphorical and literal idolatry.

In your argument about pb&j, the usage of nothing has two different connotations, but they are made to be equivalent. Therein lies the problem.

Can I ask you a question (or two?) .. were you CoC and what led you from that to atheism? Thanks in advance for the discussion.

[williamray123]

No one is "led" to atheism. Atheism is not a path or dogma. It's the lack thereof. It's a simple realization that religious claims just don't add up to anything worthy of belief. It's like homeopathy. Any critical examination reveals there's just nothing there to be worthy of belief.not believing in God is the same as not believing in homeopathy. It's not a path you are led to.

Now there may be a personal journey that enables someone to accept atheism but that's a story that has more to do with religion and its influence over society, especially CoC society, than atheism.

Yes, to clarify, I am asking about journey that enabled him/her to accept atheism. Are you atheist also?

[Turtle]

Can I ask you a question (or two?) .. were you CoC and what led you from that to atheism? Thanks in advance for the discussion.

Yes, I've attended coc for over 35 years. I still attend with my husband. He knows I am an atheist now, but not others.

Long story short:
I am a motivated self learner and and studied religiously for years. I decided to read outside approved coc literature to see what other people believed and why. I studied other versions of christianity and began to see that many of them believed things that made more logical sense that what I had heard all those years before. I saw that I could question everything I had been taught and broadened my studies to include secular science and history, especially as related to religious teachings. It was like scales fell off my eyes and I could now see clearly. I also learned about the history of philosophy and logic, and the advances in neuroscience relating to the psyche. Everything I learned added to my cognitive dissonance until I had to admit to myself that I no longer believed in anything supernatural at all. It took about five years for this to gradually happen.

[KLP]

Well, I've known a few atheists who thought highly enough of themselves that I'd argue the point, but as a rule...no. "

Even making statements like this tends to muddy the waters. (No offense) The most selfish, conceited, narcissistic
human being is not actually "worshipping" himself. That is metaphorical. However, metaphorical worship is often equated to literal worship by people who prefer not to see the difference between the two. The same with metaphorical and literal idolatry....

Right. It has to do with definition of terms. So no there is no "worship" per se. But there is a decision being made about what guiding principals or what defines wisdom. All of the terms available on this topic seem to have so much baggage or other connotation, so this is probably not coming across as intended.

Even switching to a term like some variation of "humanism" is not perfect because again people define it differently.

another thought on this topic is the spectrum of agnostic to atheism. So often people use phrases like there is no proof or things said about a supernatural realm do not "add up". That would certainly qualify for agnostic it seems, at a minimum. But then some it seems move further to insist that atheism is their position...which if I understand it right is an assertion that there in fact is no God. That to me at least seems to be some sort of positive assertion which again to me implies some sort of definite state of understanding that is beyond empirical evidence. So maybe that is why some people see a relationship or similarity in some aspects of religion and atheism? I am just guessing at the logic. But yes, the traditional or broad use of the term "worship" is probably misapplied and not helpful.

So how does one move from agnostic to atheist?

[Turtle]

Well, I've known a few atheists who thought highly enough of themselves that I'd argue the point, but as a rule...no. "

Even making statements like this tends to muddy the waters. (No offense) The most selfish, conceited, narcissistic
human being is not actually "worshipping" himself. That is metaphorical. However, metaphorical worship is often equated to literal worship by people who prefer not to see the difference between the two. The same with metaphorical and literal idolatry....

Right. It has to do with definition of terms. So no there is no "worship" per se. But there is a decision being made about what guiding principals or what defines wisdom. All of the terms available on this topic seem to have so much baggage or other connotation, so this is probably not coming across as intended.

Even switching to a term like some variation of "humanism" is not perfect because again people define it differently.

another thought on this topic is the spectrum of agnostic to atheism. So often people use phrases like there is no proof or things said about a supernatural realm do not "add up". That would certainly qualify for agnostic it seems, at a minimum. But then some it seems move further to insist that atheism is their position...which if I understand it right is an assertion that there in fact is no God. That to me at least seems to be some sort of positive assertion which again to me implies some sort of definite state of understanding that is beyond empirical evidence. So maybe that is why some people see a relationship or similarity in some aspects of religion and atheism? I am just guessing at the logic. But yes, the traditional or broad use of the term "worship" is probably misapplied and not helpful.

So how does one move from agnostic to atheist?

Atheism does not make any positive statements about the supernatural, it is just a position in relation to theism, the same relationship that a non- stamp collector has to stamp collecting. There is an atheist meme that says christians are atheistic about all the thousands of gods throughout history, except one. Atheists go one God further. In Ancient Rome christians were considered atheists because they refused to worship the roman gods.

Yes, there is a spectrum. An agnostic is one who says, I don't know if there is a god or not, but I'm living like there isn't one. An atheist says I don't believe there are any gods because I have no reason to believe there are. They are very similar but subtlely different. The person who makes a positive statement and says there are definitely no gods and believes there is proof to that regard is referred to as a "strong atheist." That is actually an unusual position. Atheists usually prefer not to carry the burden of proof because it is considered impossible to prove a negative. I can't prove God doesn't exist the same way I can't prove there are no unicorns that poop skittles.

Generally speaking agnosticism addresses knowledge, atheism addresses belief. To move from agnosticism to Atheism is to merely make the admission that one does not believe in any gods at all.

[KLP]

Thanks for the nuance, I have learned something more about atheism such as that there are types of atheism and that the superset of atheism is not a positive assertion about anything out side of the natural realm. So to move from agnostic to the superset of atheism it is in a sense a choice. I know the term "choice" is another hot button for some people. As you have stated it resulted because of all you studies and research. But to the person that studies then if not a choice then at the least it is an acceptance of what makes sense to the person based on their current thinking....how they came to that thinking is another discussion. But based on the information available and consumed then this or that is the most (if not only) rational position.

Is it fair to take your expression of an agnostic is one who says they do not know if a god exists or not but is living as if one does exist...is it fair to take that and say then that an atheist in the broadest sense is then an agnostic who has decided to live as if there is no god? Is that the distinction? (leaving out those who like a Hawking assert that there is in fact no god...I am not discussing that)